Paying for college
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| Fri, 08-03-2007 - 11:14am |
Next year at this time we will be sending DD off to college. We are making campus visits, she has taken her ACT test, and has college and scholarship applications on her mind.
My question...how is your student's college bill being paid? H and I have been discussing this for years and now the time is here to make a decision and make it known to DD. We would like to help her, but we don't want college given to her and we don't want her to be overwhelmed with debt when she is finished. We believe she should put tremedous effort into scholarship applications (and have strongly encouraged her to do things that look good on her applications), however, we don't what her hopes dashed if she does not receive a lot of gift money.
DD will not be eligible for federal grants. Any government assistance will come in the form of a $3500 Stafford Loan. We thought we would give her $5000 per year which is about 1/3 of the budget for the school she plans to attend. She would be responsible for the rest through scholarships, working, and her savings. (We are hoping she will not opt for alternative loans or ask us to take out the parent loans).
I'm interested in other thoughts or philosophies on this subject.
Thanks....Julie

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I am past following the math here cause it's not my field. I think that it's unrealistic to assume that any young college grad is going to be "investing" that much money anyway. They will be lucky if they get a job w/ a 401(k) or something like that, but most young 20's people are probably going to be saving any extra money they don't have to pay in loans toward their first house.
I can't see that the kid who takes longer to go to college has any increased earning potential because he worked in some minimum wage job to support himself while going to college. The example I gave before was of my friend who went to secretarial school before starting work, so she at least had a marketable skill and wasn't working minimum wage. But I can tell you that I have 2 nephews--ages 20 & 21. Neither one of them was a great student. One of them is going to a very inexpensive local college and working part-time. His current job is as a host in a restaurant. Before that, he worked in a grocery store. How much do you think he made? I can't imagine it's more than $10/hr. He lives at home and doesn't have a car, so he has minimum expenses.
I know that an employer will probably be impressed by someone's hard work if they worked their way through school, but I'm not sure they would have any edge over a student who went to school in 4 yrs and had a part-time job and worked during the summer AND because they didn't have to support themselves, also might have had some free time to be the editor of the school newspaper, to do some volunteer work, or whatever. It depends on what you want to be and what the demand is for that job. My DD is lucky because there is such a big demand for nurses that as long as she passes the boards, she will be hired somewhere. If I was hiring a laywer right out of law school for my firm, I would take into consideration if he/she worked as a paralegal first, but if he/she did filing or answered the phones, that wouldn't make much difference. The fact that someone is a responsible worker only goes so far if the work experience isn't relevant to their profession. A person can be just as responsible if they are able to go through college in 4 yrs. and do very well grade-wise.
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I did so, in order for the information given to be an accurate picture of what could happen to the same child if things we done one way vs another. To compare apples to apples in two different situations. Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.
Additionally, you are assuming that nothing can be gained from "low skilled jobs". Any work experience is experience and just as much work ethic can be gained from working on an assembly line, as can be gained by working in a lab. Both have their value and both have their lessons to learn.
Generally speaking, someone who has worked seven solid years (even at a low skill job) will be looked at as having more work experience than someone who just worked summers for four years. Especially if at the end they both have the same academic qualifications. (which is again why I put them on a level playing field.. same school, same degree, same honors at graduation etc..). So that the only difference in that situation was their work experience.
I can see that you are either not paying attention to the details of my posts, skimming them or you are simply looking for a debate. In either case I don't have time for a constant reiteration of my posts and consistant clearification of things that were already clearly stated initially. Which is all I seem to be doing as of late.
stacy
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Try again. Dh and I both did this and we both graduated with honors. Our grades didn't suffer. Dh's GPA was 3.8 and the Lowest my GPA dipped was 3.6 and that was the year my father passed away.
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Wrong again. My husband worked an internship his senior year while doing contract work for the university. He was hired by that same company straight out of college.
Taking more time didn't hurt my grades, it didn't hurt my chances of getting a job out of college, it didn't hurt my opportunities to work within my field and if anything it helped. That unskilled job and the the knowlege of my major in college resulted in contract work for the same company while I was still in school that PAID! I was also considered ahead of other applicants with similar education backgrounds upon graduation.. simply because we were neck and neck for the job education wise.. but I had been with the company for years and had a track record of being on time, reliable, hard working etc..
Just because you saw it happen to a few people, doesn't mean that it happens to everyone. I've probably see just as many unemployeed college graduates complain about about student loan payments that they can't pay.
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Actually I didn't fail to factor that in. As I put both kids on equal ground (same degree, same college, working for the same company after graduation, same pay etc..) for a reason. Yet you consistantly insist on comparing apples to oranges. Which is what I don't understand.
stacy
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True. Child B may well get a better job or decide to work for a non-profit. The purpose of putting them on the same ground (job, income, degree, college etc..) was to have the numbers reflect what would happen with a loan and without a loan period. Consider it a control group.
There are no guarentees. That's why it's JUST AND EXAMPLE. The numbers however, are very acturate to the example as they were provided by dh, who is a finance professional.
I don't go by what if's in life and that is what I'm being given. Lots of what if's.
My personal experience as well as dh's says that it's not worth it take on student loans. Our GPA's were not effected by our working through school, nor were our chances for internships or career related experiences. Nor were our chances for getting work upon graduation. Though I quit two years later when my son was born with CP and dh switched careers midstream because he was sick of how volitile and unpredictable the industry was. With our son's medical needs we needed stability.
Life throws you curve balls all the time. Having a medically fragile infant was a big one. DH loosing his job due to the company going south during the dot com crash (with a four month old in the ICU Quarantine) That was curve number two. My point is that I see no point in increasing my chances of curve balls. There are no guarentees.. which is why I don't put all my eggs in one basket and I don't bet the farm on potential earnings, jobs or anything else that MIGHT happen.
stacy
I think she has/is following your posts...
"I think she has/is following your posts... I think the problem is that many of the other members of this board see that your numbers are not realistic. They are hoping, to help you understand that."
Very well said Cheryl. Your whole post was said in a great way. I just wanted to add, that the "debate" aspect of this kind of got started by ma2connor because of the attitude of their is NOTHING worth going into debt for. I think when someone makes a statement like that....they really need to put "in my opinion" all over that!!!
I also believe that this board is full of well edjucated people, but not only academically, but in the rehlm of parenting. One thing that I have found out quickly about having teenagers is they are not going to be "just like you" or do things "just like you did" and I think that one of the best things this board offers is the Been There Done That approach.
Ma2connor, you really have not wanted to take any of that BTDT advise, but also as Cheryl said, you can't spin those numbers to make me believe that You would be BETTER OFF if you worked your way through 7 yrs of school PERIOD with a min.wage job. My DH went to the Navel Academy and was a Marine for 5 yrs + reserve duty. He was 5 yrs behind his peers when he entered the the civilian work force, he has done very well and Runs the Dallas Office of a major billion dollar company, but......he still feel 5 yrs behind his peers.
Just another point.
Julie
I too have been following this thread with interest.
It's 3 years before my oldest goes, so I've got some time to think about things. And, since we homeschool, I've gotten some great advice on where to look for scholarships from posts over on that board.
I personally went to cc, full tuition scholarship, lived at home, paid for books and incidentals only, my own car/ gas, etc. with a bit of help from my older parents.
Our family is lower/middle class. Not poor, but, not extremely well off. I provide the sole income for our family, on what I make. I too, would hate to see my kids trying to scrape by on minimum wage job. But, there are millions who do. Some do it more efficiently than others. Our house payment is $350./month. We do have some CC debt, but it is under $5K, and dropping. We haven't had a car payment in years, with the exception of this year, and that was about a month before we consolidated that with our remodel. Our house is old and we are currently remodeling. DH put a 550 sq ft addition on it, with the help of one family member. He's done the electrical himself/ plumbing/ sheetrock, you name it. He has not sub'd out anything. We owe less than $30K for the entire thing, so our total in money owed out is approximately 1/2 of my years wages. We live comfortably, want for little. DH and I have cells, because we need them for travel (I drive 75 miles round trip), and he's got the kids full time. Kids have tv's/ cable/ dirt bikes/ go karts/ mp3's/ game systems/ friends. And, my kids get along pretty good, little ones included. We've got 2 freezers full of home grown meat for the fall/winter and more meat on the hoof growing. We live within our means, and enjoy doing that. It is us. Hopefully you all enjoy what you are doing as well.
Good parents want better for their kids. How we get them there is different from family to family. To all those who choose to cover/save for their kids educations: GREAT! I applaud you. Honestly, I do. I will help my kids whatever way I can. But, it will not be by footing the bill for them. My employer does have some financial aid for children of employees. My kids will probably be encouraged to go to CC to get an AD in some type of field they can enjoy. Something to get that foot in the door in the field they want to work at. That CC is a part of a larger university in our state, and they can transfer all those credits there if they want to get their bachelor and go from there. On their own, one way or another. With DD#1, I cannot see her wanting to stay home with us for very long.
Personally, I am an RN. I told myself when I graduated, that I would go back to school in 5 years to bet my BS. I do bedside nursing. I love it! I do not want to do management, or anything else. It makes me feel good to hear nurses who I respect because they take such good care of their patients telling me that I do the same. So, if you're ever in my neck of the woods and wind up in the CCU, I might just be one to care for you. I say this to get this point across. First, and foremost, what I want my kids to do is enjoy life, do something they can enjoy, don't extend beyond your means. And, if you don't like what you do, you will NOT be the first one to go back to school for their second career. OMG, how many middle age people go to nursing school. You'd be surprised. And, how many young nurses come out of the schools, work a few years, to get married, and quit to raise their children. I'm hoping most of them keep their license, but not everyone uses the education they obtain. But, hopefully most of them enjoy it.
Life can throw you curve balls. Sometimes it feels like that ball-throwing thing is aimed right at ya! My right arm is out of the splint. I've been off work for 3 weeks. Will be off 2 more, doing physical therapy. Then I go back to work light-duty, doing crap chart audits just to get me off the worker's comp. I'll be spoon feed my higher wage for the remainder of my 2 months recouperation doing unnecessary work in order to get me off the w/c books (not cost effective in my thinking). Now, talk about workers comp, I only get the cut/off wage because I make too much, so I don't even get the 2/3's. Got to pay the insurance for my family myself, because that's not covered. It sucks. Only thing good about it is that maybe it'll throw us into a lower tax bracket. But, it's better than nothing. Accidents happen every day. I should be back to normal in 2 months from injury. The dr group I went to is world reknown, no kidding, did the first 2 hand transplants in the world. There were probably about 12-14 names up on the wall of drs in the office. Mine was about 2/5 of the way down, pretty high up there right? Yeah, he didn't even go out and tell my DH after surgery what he did. Nurse had to tell him there were 2 screws. Nope, there was only one. He didn't even bother looking at all my x-rays, because he DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE MY LEFT ARM WAS FREAKING BROKE TOO. Argued with the nurse, geez, and this is a respected dr? My DH, called him an idiot over the speaker phone.
Agree to disagree. However our kids get there, they'll be supported. It doesn't have to be financial. If my kids don't want to go to college and end up working at a fast-food restaurant, I'll worry about them, sure. But, that's THEIR choice. Don't we all like to run through MickyD's? How would we all feel if they all closed down because there was no one to run them? I know that's unrealistic, but you get my meaning. Whatever you do to contribute to society, there's something worthwile in it, no matter how menial it is. And, I wipe people's butts all day, sometimes. Thankfully I get paid pretty good to do it. But I still do it. And, I am NOT the kind of nurse who goes to find the aide to do it (we don't have those in the units), I do it myself, and only ask for help if I need it. When I worked in the step down unit the aides LOVED me.
My arm is killing me. Best wishes to everyone
Sallie
Edited 8/6/2007 4:34 pm ET by lemonewton
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It's an idealistic example. Under perfect conditions with everything being on a level playing field. I made that very clear on several occasions...which is why I believe that my posts are not being read carefully. The numbers are accurate for the situation given.
Would a college grad in his 20's invest that much? Problably not. The point was that he'd have that money free to do with as he wanted, Invest, buy a car, save for a house, spend on his girlfriend etc.. He wouldn't need to be putting towards paying a loan.
Her point was that her Child A, with a loan, would be ahead because they were earning more money three years sooner. I proved that statement wrong with my investment example. That was the whole purpose of this exercise.
The use of numbers for the investment purposes was to show what could happen if the money were free to be invested, rather than needing to be put towards the paying off of a loan. Since earning potential was the case in point we originally were discussing.
I was under the impression that that was clear. It was a controlled example. Not a real world.. this is what my kid is going to do and he'll be rich type of thing.
stacy
The point is you are not comparing "apples to apples" since you obviously don't understand the nature of post-secondary education,especially post-secondary training required for professional jobs.
I did not say that there is nothing to gain from an unskilled job. My DD is working this summer at a "MacDonald" type job. I did when I was a student over 35 years ago. I have encouraged DD to do so because it has taught her the value of her education. (She understands how physically draining and intellectually numbing these jobs are. Her drive to work hard in school to become the best she can be in her chosen career path has been strengthened). But next summer she will START TO TAKE HER CAREER SERIOUSLY and look for a summer placement in her field. She nor any young person DOES NOT need to work at a low paying job for seven years to learn the value of work. She already knows the value of hard work. She has shown commitment since she takes her education seriously.
It is RELEVANT job experience that counts. That is the point you seem to not understand.
I found that your example poorly constructed and showed a total lack of understanding of the nature of highly skilled employment. You obviously did not understand what I wrote. As someone who has graduate degrees in Engineering, who has worked in industry for over 35-years and has been in the position to hire, I speak from experience. I can only surmise that you have never worked in a position that required the level of educational attainment that the positions I have been in the position to fill.
You don't understand that a student who has worked in a low-wage,unskilled position for 7 years WILL NOT be considered at the same level as someone who has went straight through university in the time alloted. This is reality. This is a fact. Their job experience will NOT BE COUNTED but could work against them.
When we hire a new graduate, we look for RELEVANT experience. We look for HIGH MARKS because that shows commitment and a level of knowledge required for the position. We look for participation in engineering student activities. We look for summer co-op employment (which I REPEAT IS ONLY AVAILABLE TO FULL-TIME STUDENTS). If a young person has taken 7-years to complete a degree, the marks are not given as much weight as someone who has immerse themselves full-time. We asked ourselves if this person has the intellectual capability to perform in the position. The person will most likely NOT BE HIRED.
If I had two resumes in front of me. Child A took the required 4-years to complete his degree. He graduated with excellent marks,with participation in various extra academic activities provided by the university. He worked two summers at a low-end `Mac job`. The third summer, he worked for one of his profs calibrating equipment and taking measurements in the lab. Child B took double the time to graduate. He went to school part-time with no real continuity of courses. His marks are good but we would question his commitment to being an engineer.
I would hire Child A,over child B because Child A has demonstrated that he can work in an engineering atmosphere. Say that Child A spent the third summer working at a Mac job. I would still hire Child A over Child B because Child A is obviously more interested in being an engineer. AND CHILD A HAS DEMONSTRATED THAT HE CAN WITHSTAND THE STRESS OF A VERY HEAVY ACADEMIC WORK LOAD. He has taken the full 13-courses per year and did very well. Child B spread out the work load. Even though he was working at same time, his job is not considered as intellectual taxing as going to school full time, with the tight deadlines and demands. He is not considered a more attractive potential junior engineer because his experience is NOT RELEVANT for the position he is being hired for.
It is important that all you parents out there understand this reality. The world of the skilled professions DO NOT equate low-end jobs at the same level as summer internships. We value high marks over low-end job experience. We value earning a degree in a timely fashion over spreading it out over several years. We value INTELLECT over knowing how to
run a cash register. You might say that we are snobs but that is the way it is.
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