Punishment

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-18-2005
Punishment
22
Mon, 12-05-2005 - 7:45pm

It's so discouraging to read so many posts about how parents "tried everything" - which means punishing the H*LL out of their teenagers - and don't understand why the kids don't behave. Would you behave if you were in an environment of constant threat of punishment? "Do what I say or you'll spend the rest of the day/week/year in your bedroom"?

"Tried Everything" should mean talking to your child (even before they were teenagers), teaching them the way you would like to behave, treating them with respect, rewarding and praising them when they behave responsibly. Punishment is a last resort that should be used sparingly, if at all. "Tried Everything" means preventing problems, setting up successes, teaching new skills (like time management, responsibility for property, etc). If you think punishment accomplishes anything (other than making the punisher feel powerful, and like they've gotten revenge), then look at recidivism rates in prisons, look at how many kids are repeatedly sent to the principal's office or suspended over and over.

Our job as parents is NOT to beat our kids into submission, but to gradually (over 18-21 years) raise responsible, caring, independent adults. How the heck does repeated punishment (or threat of punishment) teach that???

Sure to get flames and that's fine. Not only is this my parenting belief, but it's what I do for a living.

Sue

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-07-2005
In reply to: ljd_mom
Tue, 12-06-2005 - 9:15am

<<>>

OK, that I can certainly get behind. Sorry I sorta "snapped" at you!

zz

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-14-2000
In reply to: ljd_mom
Tue, 12-06-2005 - 9:38am

I've read this thread a few times and, while I do agree with you that we need to talk to our kids from the time they are young, explain our reasoning when possible, use positive reinforcement, etc. I also think that there are times that we do need to discipline our kids.

Pam
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-21-2005
In reply to: ljd_mom
Tue, 12-06-2005 - 10:17am

Pam,
Your story illustrates exactly why I made the "broad brush" comment. Our kids come to us with their own personalities and the free will God gave them. To a certain degree - to a very large degree most of the time - we can influence them and steer them. But we can only take so much credit for their successes and only so much blame for their failures. It's like Kahill Gibran says in The Prophet:

"You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of to-morrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you. For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday. You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth. "

You handled the situation with Jason beautifully and you've given both your sons a solid base on which to build their lives. That's all any of us can really do.

jt

Avatar for heartsandroses2002
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
In reply to: ljd_mom
Tue, 12-06-2005 - 10:24am

I wholeheartedly agree. And I have a very challenging 16dd. She has always been a challenge and she's always tried to push us to the limits of our patience. She's lied, stolen, refused to do homework, you name it she's done or tried it. She's always liked the EDGE.

By remaining consistent, seeking counseling when needed, and teaching her life lessons, loving her and praising her when she does "it" (whatever it is) correctly or well is what we've tried to do. I will admit that back when she was around 7/8 I lost my patience and swatted her a few times, but I quickly learned that wasn't an appropriate method - it didn't teach her anything and she only became more resistent and oppositional to all authority and rules, etc. Through positive reinforcement and the natural consequences of her behavior, she learned, she's still learning. She's a slow learner, but that's okay. I can see her blossoming these past few months. She's maturing, she's more caring and more respectful these days. She asks now instead of just doing whatever she wants.

Is she an A student? No, she likely will never be an A student. Can she be an A student? Yes, she's capable, but she doesn't want to do the necessary work to get the A's. And I place more value on WHO she is as a human being rather than on her GPA. She is the one who will suffer the consequences of less than stellar grades when it comes time to choose a college after graduation.

Using brute force and constant loss of privileges and groundings has never worked with her - it only exacerbates the problem. However, talking with her and compromising with her has always helped a situation. Mostly, natural consequences with her peers and/or teachers has been the biggest motivator in her case.

Anyway, mostly wanted to just say I agreed with your point of view!

Avatar for heartsandroses2002
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
In reply to: ljd_mom
Tue, 12-06-2005 - 10:33am
**Just want to add an after thought in regards to loss of privileges. I think that loss of privileges in many cases is definitely warranted, for instance, when a teen is abusing the privilege of driving by driving impaired or driving recklessly - those are obvious. The loss of privileges that I object to is the loss of ALL privileges at the same time, or excessive loss of privileges. For instance, if a loss of one or two privileges doesn't work, what would make anyone think that a loss of all privileges would? In my experience, it usually backfires and creates more strife and aggravation. I think finding new and innovative methods of dealing with each teen on his/her individual level takes practice, time and creativity. And the result is usually better and faster than simple "Because I said so" mentality or taking away everything. Gosh, even inmates get tv and gym time to work out thier agressions.
iVillage Member
Registered: 12-22-2003
In reply to: ljd_mom
Tue, 12-06-2005 - 11:15am

I'm not saying I have perfect kids, nor am I saying we will never have problems or issues just because I talk to them and always have. I'm saying I haven't had any real issues ... YET. That's not to say I won't ever, but so far, I've been lucky and I do know that. DD is at at the 'youngish' end of teenagedom and DS hasn't even gotten there yet. Do I anticipate problems? You bet I do! Especially with DS since he has a current hate-on for school and I'm sure there will be some fall-out in the future if his feelings about it don't turn around some.

I had two occassions over the weekend where I saw DD in a different light. Both times included driving her and friends somewhere. I overheard stories from school I've never heard, things she did I wasn't aware of ... normal teen stuff. I fully realize teens will usually present a face to mom and dad that is MUCH different than the ones their peers see. But if I found out today that she was drinking, smoking, doing drugs or having sex, I would fall over dead, I'd be that shocked.

And I'm not saying I'm a perfect parent, either. I've raised my voice PLENTY over the years, handled situations extremely badly, been insensitive and hurt feelings ... you name it, I've done it. But for the most part, it's going OKAY.

When the time comes to punish my teens or take away privileges, I hope I will be rational enough to seek a punishment worthy of the crime. As other posters mentioned, taking away driving privileges for a teen driving under the influence, punishing lying with extra chores ... all the things I read about here. Stripping a child of everything but a blanket and pillow is extreme, to say the least.

Hanging around this board has been enlightening in more ways than one. By reading what other moms (and dads) have been through and are going through, advice from other posters, how to handle different situations, etc., I feel better prepared for whatever the future hands me as we travel through the teen years than I would if I thought my child was the only one doing X or going through Y, or whatever.

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-07-2005
In reply to: ljd_mom
Tue, 12-06-2005 - 11:57am

<<>>

As I recall, it literally felt as if all my air had been sucked out of my lungs, out of my stomach, and I kinda leaned over.... until I could stand up straight again. I can almost feel it right now as I write this. But I didn't fall over dead. I couldn't afford to, I had a mission then!

I haven't updated yet about my son on the TT board because he has made such an awesome comearound... but it's only been like 2-1/2 weeks (?), so I hesitate to jump to conclusions. But last night as he walked over to me, hugged me and wouldn't let go, and told me he loved me 3 times (!), I could see that things were changing. There have been many others, also, but I'm just waiting to see....

But anyway, a comment along with my apologies to Rose here (who I happen to adore), but it IS hurtful to hear that I may have screwed DS-16 up as early as 2 years old. If I did, then why do I keep trying so hard? And I know you said "most" kids, and I believe on an earlier post as much as 90%, are troubled because of their parents. Am I correct?

It's tough, this thing called "raising teens". It's even tougher hearing that I may have screwed him up 14 years ago and a huge chance that I'm screwing him up even now.

zz

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-22-2003
In reply to: ljd_mom
Tue, 12-06-2005 - 12:24pm

<>

I have been wondering how it was going with you and your DS ... I am SO glad to hear things are improving. I hope they just keep getting better and better!

{{hugs}}

Julie

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
In reply to: ljd_mom
Tue, 12-06-2005 - 1:20pm
Discipline is not the same as severe punishment, and that was what the OP was talking about. My post was not meant to be arrogant or a brag fest, I was simply saying that I felt that severe punishment never works. The kids feel like they have nothing left to lose, so why not do what they want? I am speaking from my own experiences growing up with a controlling, physically and emotionally abusive, alcoholic stepfather.
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-03-2003
In reply to: ljd_mom
Tue, 12-06-2005 - 10:04pm

Pam,
I read your message on your oldest son and while I saw where you were coming from, it also bothered me a bit. I mostly lurk here but de-lurked to give you my 2 cents. Please don't take it the wrong way.

For 17-18 years you shaped who your son is, isn't it normal for your son to naturally try & spread his wings at age 17/18 and form different relationships with different types of people? Isn't it natural at that age to look at one's image and question if that is the person they really want to be? Isn't it a normal at 17 or 18 to date someone who mom or dad do not understand? At what age can a young man pick some friends who are different from the ones mom or dad might approve of? Although you may have felt justified in setting rules for friendships and who your son dates, it can be interpretted as a control issue. I personally think mom and dad have every right to set boundaries in the young teen years, but we have to be prepared to let our kids grow in the weeks and months before we send them out on there own to college or wherever adulthood takes them.

To be honest with you, I think that what your son was doing was perfectly natural IMHO. Punishing him in his senior year for not keeping the types of friends that mom/dad approve doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

Have you ever felt that you no longer have as much in common with a good friend and end up falling out of touch? It would seem to me that we all ought to be able to make our own friendships and discover who we are on our own, especially at 17 or 18 years of age. When you were a teen, wouldn't you have been ready to rebel if mom or dad labled some new friends as "party kids?" Wouldn't you feel like mom or dad just don't understand or aren't giving me the freedom to spread my wings?

Your son may have eventually "come around", but when he is older, more mature, with additional life experiences, will he perceive what you did as manipulation and being heavy handed and look back at the "punishments" his senior year with angst instead of understanding?

I realise that my view is just my take on what you said, but I wanted to just offer a difference of opinion. Thanks