Another hypothetical question

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-19-2008
Another hypothetical question
11
Fri, 11-21-2008 - 1:17pm

I just read the thread responding my last post and I'm extremely glad to see that all of you supported the fourteen year old right to carry her baby to term even if her parents objected. I'm pro-life by the way, but would oppose any laws that would allow parents to legally prevent a girl's abortion.

But what if this same girl had cancer or juvenile diabetes and wanted to direct her own treatment without consulting her parents or have a Do Not Resuscitate order put on her chart when they wanted her to have CPR and defibrillation? Should her rights take precedent over her parents' in this case too, and if so who would be her advocate to make sure this? I can't see the doctors and nurses supporting her for fear of a lawsuit and probably not Planned Parenthood since this isn't a reproductive issue. Is there another group that would?




Edited 11/21/2008 1:19 pm ET by redsummerflower

Pages

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-29-2005
Fri, 11-21-2008 - 2:28pm

Reproductive rights are generally carved out with specific laws (which then vary state by state) ... so issues surrounding abortion tend to be more clear cut.


Each fall I precept a group of medical students in their seminar on Health Law and Ethics, and they have a case which addresses your point.

 


Powered by
iVillage Member
Registered: 05-06-2007
Fri, 11-21-2008 - 2:42pm
"Dit" to the "to" (Ditto. :-P)
Photobucket

melissajune21.jpg picture by ambersspace


&nbs

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-19-2006
Fri, 11-21-2008 - 4:19pm

I think if she is old enough to have an opinion about her treatment (based on more than a fear of the treatment that even young kids can feel) then she should get a say. If she is able to fully comprehend the scope of the issue she should get final say.

Photobucket
*
Follow me to the Unplanned Pregnancy board!Follow me to Hot Debates!Follow me to Abortion Debate!
Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Fri, 11-21-2008 - 4:42pm

I do think that teenagers should have a legal say in their care for any condition, personally.

That said, I support parental notification for abortions for girls under the age of consent. If a 14-year-old girl is pregnant, something is very wrong. I would support notifying authorities instead of parents where warranted as well, because a pregnant 14-year-old girl needs help.




Powered by CGISpy.com


Thanks to Heather (blessedmom0508) for the beautiful signatures!
Lilypie 1st Birthday PicLilypie 1st Birthday Ticker
PhotobucketPhotobucket
Photobucket

PhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucket




Powered by CGISpy.com


Thanks

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-15-2008
Fri, 11-21-2008 - 5:28pm

I believe that the teen should have a say in their treatment.

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-19-2006
Fri, 11-21-2008 - 6:51pm


>>I do think that teenagers should have a legal say in their care for any condition, personally.<<

why is that? It seems to me that they are the ones most affected by any decisions made. I think it is important that assuming the parents are good and loving parents this in its self can cause them to make bad decisions/decisions not in their childs best interest. Most of us would do ANYTHING to save our children because we love them and the idea of their being mortal is not something we are prepared to accept. Logically we know they are mortal and can die which is why we are so obsessive about their welfare but emotionally we are not equipped to handle the reality of it. This well intentioned instinct can cause us to prolong their agony even when it is a lost cause. Inversely A parent could decide that they don't want their child to suffer any more but the teen is not quite ready to throw in the towel and wants to try experimental treatments that are unlikely to work. Should the parent get to override their desire to fight for their life similar to being able to override their right to request a death with dignity?

>>That said, I support parental notification for abortions for girls under the age of consent.<<

No matter what? How woulds they know if the girl was being a drama queen or serious when they said "my dad will kill me if he finds out" ? What about those girls who want an abortion because they are so afraid of parental reactions? Would parental consent not possible push them to take stupid risks and try to end the pregnancy on their own? Is this not one of the big reasons so many people are PL to start with?

>>If a 14-year-old girl is pregnant, something is very wrong.<<

sometimes, heck I will even say MOST times but not always. It could be nothing more than failed birth control. Age is not the sole determining factor of maturity. Had you said 10 I would agree with you but at 14 there is a bit more gray room.

>> I would support notifying authorities instead of parents where warranted as well, because a pregnant 14-year-old girl needs help.<<

How do you decide which one to tell? How long do you spend looking into it before you decide which one to tell? How much resources are going to be used deciding if you tell her parents or the police?

Also what about 15? Do they all need to have their parents told as well? 16? anyone under 18? Where and how do we draw the line?

Photobucket
*
Follow me to the Unplanned Pregnancy board!Follow me to Hot Debates!Follow me to Abortion Debate!
Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Fri, 11-21-2008 - 9:04pm

"why is that? It seems to me that they are the ones most affected by any decisions made."

You do realize that in the first quote, we are in complete agreement. I said I DO believe they should have a legal say.

And as I read the rest of your post, Misa... wow! Am I on the chopping block today? I'm wondering if you actually read what I said.

"No matter what?"

I said that I was more than happy to make exceptions to alerting proper authorities instead of parents if there were a good reason to do it.

"Would parental consent not possible push them to take stupid risks and try to end the pregnancy on their own?"

Again, Misa, you've got to read the post more carefully. At no point did I say I supported parental consent laws. I don't, quite fervently. I don't even support delaying an under-age of consent teenager's access to abortion to alert the parents or proper authorities. Teenagers over the age of consent should be able to do what they want without notification.

"sometimes, heck I will even say MOST times but not always. It could be nothing more than failed birth control. Age is not the sole determining factor of maturity. Had you said 10 I would agree with you but at 14 there is a bit more gray room."

That, of course, becomes a matter of opinion. You are right that I know 14-year-olds who could conceivably handle it. Elizabeth goes to a daycare run by a woman who had her first child at 14. But I've also worked with teenagers for many years and I would not assume automatically that a 14-year-old who is having sex is having consensual sex. The exception to the rule maybe, but I would not assume that it is the norm.

"How do you decide which one to tell? How long do you spend looking into it before you decide which one to tell? How much resources are going to be used deciding if you tell her parents or the police?"

That would have to be determined, of course, on a case-by-case basis. I believe, and I think that you will agree with me, that it is unwise to make these decisions off-the-cuff. So I can't really answer those questions for you because I'm not a policymaker and I'm not a social worker either. I'd probably get some highly qualified people in those positions to help the girl come to a decision.

"Also what about 15? Do they all need to have their parents told as well? 16? anyone under 18? Where and how do we draw the line?"

"Age of consent" is a specific age in most areas, as far as I am aware. It's 16 here in California. My opinion is that if someone can go to prison for having sex with a person under the age of consent, then the proper authorities ought to be alerted when it becomes very apparent that an underage child has been having sex. What if the 14-year-old girl was raped? Teenage sexual abuse is so horribly common here that I would be horrified to think that a 14-year-old girl would have to go through an abortion (or possibly hiding a pregnancy) and recovery alone, without someone there to offer support and assistance. I fully realize that sometimes the parents aren't the ideal in that situation, but someone should be there.

I think it's probably a fair statement to say that you've debated with me for over a year now and none of the statements I made in this thread are new. I've got a couple of straw men here and I really think you've taken a lot of what I've said out of context and out of proportion. Not at all the norm for you, IMO.




Powered by CGISpy.com


Thanks to Heather (blessedmom0508) for the beautiful signatures!
Lilypie 1st Birthday PicLilypie 1st Birthday Ticker
PhotobucketPhotobucket
Photobucket

PhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucket




Powered by CGISpy.com


Thanks

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-19-2006
Fri, 11-21-2008 - 9:57pm

>>You do realize that in the first quote, we are in complete agreement. I said I DO believe they should have a legal say.<<

OK note to self do not post without glasses. I misread what you said. Guess now I know why I am not allowed to drive without the buggers.

That said, I support parental notification for abortions for girls under the age of consent. If a 14-year-old girl is pregnant, something is very wrong. I would support notifying authorities instead of parents where warranted as well, because a pregnant 14-year-old girl needs help.

>>Again, Misa, you've got to read the post more carefully. At no point did I say I supported parental consent laws. I don't, quite fervently. I don't even support delaying an under-age of consent teenager's access to abortion to alert the parents or proper authorities. Teenagers over the age of consent should be able to do what they want without notification.<<

Typo on my part there. I see I typed consent instead of notification. I realized you were talking about parental notification but in the eyes of most 14/15 year olds it is the same thing. If they are getting an abortion without their parents consent they certainly don't want the clinic turning around and 'telling on them'. Now I am aware that is not what the clinic is doing but in the eyes of most teenagers it amounts to the same thing. For myself personally the only reason I got as good of gynecological care as I did at that age is because I could do so without the slightest worry about my doctor telling my parents. Had I thought he was going to call them up and inform them I came in to inquire about an STD test I would have been far less likely to do so. For a girl who is afraid of her parents knowing that she is going to be told on (even if her parents would not harm her in any way) could be enough to make her do something desperate and stupid.

>>"Age of consent" is a specific age in most areas, as far as I am aware. It's 16 here in California. My opinion is that if someone can go to prison for having sex with a person under the age of consent, then the proper authorities ought to be alerted when it becomes very apparent that an underage child has been having sex. What if the 14-year-old girl was raped? Teenage sexual abuse is so horribly common here that I would be horrified to think that a 14-year-old girl would have to go through an abortion (or possibly hiding a pregnancy) and recovery alone, without someone there to offer support and assistance. I fully realize that sometimes the parents aren't the ideal in that situation, but someone should be there.<<

Yes if there is any reason to believe that there was rape (statutory or otherwise) the police should be notified but if it was just 2 fourteen year olds being stupid or two fourteen year olds with failed BC I see no reason to bring anyone else into the situation. I think any one old enough to make gynecological choices (including birth control, gestation, abortion and STD testing) is old enough to do so without bringing third parties into it. While I think it is horrible to imagine a 14 year old going through that alone I think it should be her choice to make about who she wants to include in the process.

>>I think it's probably a fair statement to say that you've debated with me for over a year now and none of the statements I made in this thread are new. I've got a couple of straw men here and I really think you've taken a lot of what I've said out of context and out of proportion. Not at all the norm for you, IMO.<<

OK ignoring the fact that I misread your opening sentence and that caused a lot of confusion, I will take the blame for being unclear and mistyping in the second part. I am against parental notification for legal gynecological procedures though so I do disagree with you on that one. I think teens who choose to be sexually active deserve the same privacy as adults get. Allowing them this, and making sure they are aware of that privacy, is IMO an important step to getting them to take some responsibility for their reproductive health.

Also IRT reporting statutory rape to the authorities that is already covered by the law as doctors are mandated reporters so there is no need for a second notification law just to ensure parents are told IMO

Am I any clearer this time?

Photobucket
*
Follow me to the Unplanned Pregnancy board!Follow me to Hot Debates!Follow me to Abortion Debate!
Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-15-2008
Fri, 11-21-2008 - 11:52pm

I'm going to chime in with personal experience.


I have a serious condition called Hydrocephalus. I've had to have brain surgery twice in my like...once as a baby...and once at 13. I am EXTREMELY lucky in that most children born with this condition usually have at least 10 brain surgeries by the time they hit 13 (there was a little boy in our group who was 2 1/2 and had well over 20). Brain surgery is a VERY risky thing and the more surgeries, the more likelyhood of complications, especially permenent and irreverasble brain damage. When you have a life threatening or life altering condition at a young age, especially one you grow up with...you grow up QUICK. You CAN NOT look at a 13 yr old


Powered by CGISpy.com
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-07-2008
Sat, 11-22-2008 - 5:36am

Pages