Conflict of Interest

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-04-2003
Conflict of Interest
23
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 12:39pm
I think it all boils down to a conflict of interests.....or rights.

Yes a woman has the right to decide whether she wants to have a baby or not

BUT a woman does NOT have the right over life and death.

Do you see what i mean?

Some people think that the first right outweighs the second right

Others think that the second right outweighs the first......

As for the whole "It is MY body that will change" argument......since when have we REALLY had any control over our bodies.....remember PUBERTY? and those Earth Shaking cramps?

I had no control over that........and there was no one to blame for that. Pregnancy is over in 9 months......your period and puberty last for years and years......

Another Argument is that a womans body is her property and that her property is hers to do with as she sees fit.......

While that is true.....we need to be careful what we label as property and what our rights are concerning our "property"

1) It is in this same country that Black slaves were considered the PROPERTY of their white owners ......thus a slave owner could treat his slave as he saw fit.

2) In some cultures in the PRESENT DAY WORLD, women are considered the PROPERTY of MEN. Thus, men are FREE to do as they will with their women. They can kill them, lock them in a house, give them away to other men to give them 'pleasure' , etc etc.

So if it being your property justifies whatever actions you can take towards that person......then is it not hypocritical to criticize slave owners for doing what they did, or criticize those men for mistreating women? They were simply handling their own......"property".

Another Argument is the "It is not a human yet" argument......

If that were true ...then its not really killing is it?.......or not.......when you kill an animal......which is not a human.......many people will STILL debate with you over the rights of that animal to live. That just because it is not a human does not mean that it does not have the right to live. Talk to your local Vegetarian.

I think it very odd that in America ANIMALS have more rights than children do.

Another argument is the "Why give it up for Adoption.....al the orphanages are too full"

1) would you rather have a full ORPHANAGE or a full CEMETERY full of dead baby bodies.......

Another argument is the " What if the Mother's life is in Danger?"

This is a good argument.......

1) If the Baby is going to DIE anyway......then you are only speeding up the process.

2) If it is a Matter of the Mother's life vs That of the BABY's life......there is one thing i know and that is that if My mother had the chance to choose between HER life and MINE she would choose to save me. Most mothers i know would throw themselves in front of a moving train if it meant that their child's life would be saved......you can make of that what you will.

Another argument is "Who wants to bring an UNWANTED child into this world......?"

1) Whether or not you WANT a child shouldnt be a good enough reason to kill it. If i did not WANT my puppy anymore would i go shoot it in my backyard? No.......that would be called cruelty.

2) If you don't want it....give it to someone who will

A special argument comes from MEN who are usually in support of Abortion......

"HEY, its a WOMANS decision....i cant stick my opinion in there.....i'm not a woman"

1) Of course MEN would support it......it absolves them of all responsibility. Leavign them free to knock up whatever girl they want and have their "mistake" carefully removed.

2) It takes 2 to make a baby......not one. That child is your creation also. You have a SAY. If the father really wants to raise the child and the woman does not......is it fair to the man if she aborts the baby?

Then there is the RAPE argument

1) Conception rarely happens when a woman is raped.......her body is in too much shock to concieve....

2) Nevertheless......if she does not want the baby because she feels it would be an awful reminder then she should give it up for adoption. Killing it just continues the cycle of violence.....Killing it won't take away the memory of being raped.....it will simply add to her trauma

What it all boils down to is the realization that there is no such thing as PERFECT FREEDOM......we are never free to live our lives as we see fit. Someones rghts are going to infringe on another person's rights.....it's inevitable.....So let's argue from a sense of UTILITY and JUSTICE and not CHOICE AND RIGHTS.....because no matter how many choices and rights you list ......someon'es rights are going to get trampled on.

Both sides of the abortion debate have sooooo much money to pour into their efforts. Why dont we channel this pointless debate into someting more positive?

I think Pro CHOICE and Pro LIFE should work together to ERADICATE! the reasons that women even THINK of having an abortion......such as

1)NO MONEY

2)RAPE- LETS FIGHT TOGETHER FOR TIGHTER RAPE LAWS!!!!!!!

3)FAMILY PRESSURE

4) POLITICS_ IN CHINA A WOMAN IS FORCED TO HAVE AN ABORTION IS she has more than one child. LETS LOBBY OUR GOV"T TO remove china's MOST FAVOURED COUNTRY STATUS

etc......this list goes on

Make of my little speech what you will.

Pages

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 1:04pm
Well lets see what kind of sense I can make out of this:

<>

Considering women are the ones whose bodies nourish and carry fetus's and later, provide milk for them after birth, I would say that a woman most certainly DOES have the right over life or death.

<>

And periods do not result in the permament physical, emotional and hormonal changes that pregnancy does - the changes that come with a period are temporary until the next cycle.

<
While that is true.....we need to be careful what we label as property and what our rights are concerning our "property"

1) It is in this same country that Black slaves were considered the PROPERTY of their white owners ......thus a slave owner could treat his slave as he saw fit.>>

And they are no longer considered as such. Next.



2) In some cultures in the PRESENT DAY WORLD, women are considered the PROPERTY of MEN. Thus, men are FREE to do as they will with their women. They can kill them, lock them in a house, give them away to other men to give them 'pleasure' , etc etc.>>

In some cultures yes, in some cultures cows are gods. Not in this one, however.

<>

The difference is that a waoman takes action against herself, not someone else.

<>

We aren't talking about children - we're talking about fetus's - POTENTIAL children.

<>

I would rather a woman be allowed to choose what is right for her.

<>

How about the mothers who already have born children who need and depend on them? You would leave these children motherless?

<
1) Whether or not you WANT a child shouldnt be a good enough reason to kill it. If i did not WANT my puppy anymore would i go shoot it in my backyard? No.......that would be called cruelty. 2) If you don't want it....give it to someone who will>>

Go tell that to the thousands of children currently waiting to be adopted -- the older ones, the ones with problems that NO ONE seems to want. See what they say to that.

<
"HEY, its a WOMANS decision....i cant stick my opinion in there.....i'm not a woman"

1) Of course MEN would support it......it absolves them of all responsibility. Leavign them free to knock up whatever girl they want and have their "mistake" carefully removed.>>

This is so ridiculous that I can't even respond to it.

<<2) It takes 2 to make a baby......not one. That child is your creation also. You have a SAY. If the father really wants to raise the child and the woman does not......is it fair to the man if she aborts the baby? >>

No it's not. I have always maintained that I think abortion should be a mutually agreed on thing by both prospective parents and honestly I DO think that if the father REALLY wants the child, the woman should at least take his feelings into consideration. That is JMO however.

<
1) Conception rarely happens when a woman is raped.......her body is in too much shock to concieve....>>

OMG - WHERE did you come up with THAT idea?

<<2) Nevertheless......if she does not want the baby because she feels it would be an awful reminder then she should give it up for adoption. Killing it just continues the cycle of violence.....Killing it won't take away the memory of being raped.....it will simply add to her trauma>>

Sure, make her wait another 9 months to try to rebuild her life, make her live every day watching her body change, knowing what happened to cause those changes....go through potentially dangerous labor and delivery to give the child away but keep the changes in her body as a reminder. Thats very big of you.

<>

Agreed.

<>

Ok, whatever you say. I totally lost you there.

June

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-04-2003
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 1:41pm
No a woman does not have the right over life and death......no one does.

I know that some mothers like to say "I brought you into this world and i can take you out!"

they have no right to say that. NONE. NADA. Being a woman makes you DIFFERENT from men. it does not make you GOD.

I see your point on the PUBERTY/PERIOD exchange but do NOT even for a second say that PUBERTY is but a temporary change and that PERIODS affect you only when you are on them. I have too many friends who have had to have their ovaries removed due to extremely bad menstrual cycles........i have also been to the emergency room myself with one friend who had no access to her PRESCRITION pain killers when her period came on.

Now is you multiply 12 hospital visits a year for 20 or so years plus Medicinal costs that adds up BIG TIME.

So now can you still say that these are only temporary effects?

"Black people are no longer considered PROPERTY? NEXT"?

are you black? Do you have ANY idea of the effects that slavery had on the black population not only in AMERICA but in the WORLD? EVEN UNTIL TODAY?!?!?!?

AS for the culture you were referring to in the "have gods who are cows" what do you mean "not in this one?" there is no ONE american culture. There are MANY cultures in AMERICA and the same people who worship COWS ( i hope you were not talking about INDIAN people cause that would just make what you said a very ignorant comment) live in America also. So you can't ignore that fact. All sorts of people live here (including people like you) and their beliefs affect you too.

The woman is not "taking action against herself". We're not talking about getting a tongue piercing here. Whether you believe that it is a potential life or not it involves taking action that affects BOTH HER AND SOMEONE ELSE. In fact, two other people.....if there is a father involved.

They are not potential people they are people......but there is no point debating with you about that. Why are they "potential"? Cause they can't live outside your body? Cause they need their mothers? Cause they are tiny? ..........?

As for "i would rather a woman choose what is right for her" .......you did not answer the question.

As for "How about the mothers who already have born children who need and depend on them? You would leave these children motherless? " I did not say they should immediately sacrifice themselves......i said "make of that what you will"

Let's say it as an extreme case where there is no EXTENDED family of FATHER as you no doubt imagined.......why not give it up for adoption? If she decided to sacrifice herself for the childs life you shouldnt consider her an irresponsible mom. As you would say ....she was just "making a choice"

As for "Go tell that to the thousands of children currently waiting to be adopted -- the older ones, the ones with problems that NO ONE seems to want. See what they say to that. "

are you saying that they are better off dead?! They should have been killed because they had PROBLEMS? Or shoudl they be killed cause now they are too old to be adopted? Your population control methods seem to be very brutal.......

Not everyone in the orphanage is there because they were unwanted babies......some have parents who die. Should we kill those kids so they dont have to go through the horrors of the foster system?

No one is denying that orphanges are full. So are prisons........but should we kill prisoners so that others can have the cells to themselves? This is why i made my point that we shoudl add the money from all this useless debating to more worthier causes LIKE ORPHANAGES!

As for "This is so ridiculous that I can't even respond to it. "

Why is that ridiculous......?

if you really knew something you would know that most women do not actually CHOOSE to get abortions......they are pressured into it by their BOYFRIENDS/PIMPS/SPOUSES......

AS for "Go tell that to the thousands of children currently waiting to be adopted "

How many kids do you know that wish their parents had ABORTED them? Now THAT"S what i call ridiculous.

As for " Conception rarely happens when a woman is raped.......her body is in too much shock to concieve....>>OMG - WHERE did you come up with THAT "

I did not come up with it.......I only speak facts. Go ask your doctor or your Gynecologist if you dont believe me. When the body is being attacked it goes into defense mode. That defense mode does not allow for conception. The odds are slim to none. You are more likely to conceive when you are raped repeatedly as int he case of incest, or the sexual violence in RWANDA. (Many women in RWANDA had babies after the Genocide.....'strangely' enough Many of them kept the babies.....felt that though they were reminders they were greater comforts to them) Again, if you do not believe me i can send you the link to the report on RWANDA conducted by HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH. EVER heard of them? They only use facts also.

As for "Sure, make her wait another 9 months to try to rebuild her life, make her live every day watching her body change, knowing what happened to cause those changes....go through potentially dangerous labor and delivery to give the child away but keep the changes in her body as a reminder. Thats very big of you. "

It takes more than 9 months to get over a rape.....What makes you think women get over abortions quickly?......Why do you think that that is an easier choice? Now thats BIG of YOU.

As for "Ok, whatever you say. I totally lost you there"

I thought i was speaking in English......let me say it again......." Let's ....work.....together......to........stop........the.......conditions......that .....cause.....a.....woman.......to ......even.....consider.......an.....abortion"

There was that better?

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 3:42pm
Sigh.

<>

In your belief, your god gives life. In mine, mothers give life. Simple.

<>

I never said puberty was a temporary change. I said that the changes a period bring on are temporary. I also have a few friend whos lives stop when they get their period and had a friend in my early 20s that whose periods were so bad she could barely move. But they were still temporary. They did not last forever, just the duration of the period.



<<"Black people are no longer considered PROPERTY? NEXT"?

are you black? Do you have ANY idea of the effects that slavery had on the black population not only in AMERICA but in the WORLD? EVEN UNTIL TODAY?!?!?!?>>

No I am not black but I know black people who have no problems today because of slavery THEN - it doesn't affect them.

<>

No ones beliefs affect my but my own. If there is someone in America who wnats to worship cows, trees, or mosquitos for that matter, that is THEIR business and does not affect me in any way.

<>

Yes but the ultimate action - either childbirth or abortion - involve ONLY her.

<>

They are potential because they are not yet people. They cannot be issued social security numbers, they cannot be clained as dependants on taxes. They are POTENTIAL.

<>

What, exactly, was the question?

<>

Because adoption is not an option for everyone. And ok, lets say there is a father in the scenario...you have now got children with no mother, a man with no wife. Thats even better, right?

<>

No what I am saying is that most adoptive parents don't think to try to adopt an older child or a child with special needs - they want the all american white infant. I never stated that any born child would be better off dead. Rarely in this day and age do children whose parents die/are killed go to orphanages, at least not in my area. There is always a family member to take them in.


<>

Do you have supporting links for that statement? I would like to see your stats on that.

<
How many kids do you know that wish their parents had ABORTED them? Now THAT"S what i call ridiculous.>>

I do know one guy who told me he would rather have been aborted than abandoned by his birth parents. His adoptive parents were wonderful and he loved them but he could not get over the fact that the people who brought him into this world gave him away then went on to get married and have more kids.

<>OMG - WHERE did you come up with THAT " I did not come up with it.......I only speak facts. Go ask your doctor or your Gynecologist if you dont believe me. When the body is being attacked it goes into defense mode. That defense mode does not allow for conception. The odds are slim to none. You are more likely to conceive when you are raped repeatedly as in the case of incest, or the sexual violence in RWANDA. (Many women in RWANDA had babies after the Genocide.....'strangely' enough Many of them kept the babies.....felt that though they were reminders they were greater comforts to them) Again, if you do not believe me i can send you the link to the report on RWANDA conducted by HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH. EVER heard of them? They only use facts also.>>

I just called my OB/GYN before I started this reply - she said that such a thing is a completely uneducated statement. All that is necessary for conception is an egg and sperm at the right time. Defense mode has NOTHING to do with it. She actually kind of laughed and wanted to know where I heard such a foolish thing.

<>

Yes it does take more than 9 months to get over a rape - but the healing can begin much sooner if the woman is not forced to continue a pregnancy that was the result of the rape.

<
There was that better?>>

No, your entire attitude is disrespectful, inflammatory and uninformed. Get your facts straight, learn to post respectfully and I'm sure you will get many more responses.

June

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-04-2003
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 4:46pm
I would Switch my gynecologist.

Im sure you have had sex before.

Think ....what does your body go through to be able to concieve.......what changes occur in your body? Your body works with you to help you conceive.

Can you think of it? Good. Now does that happen in rape?

No.

THATS WHY CONCEPTION IS A RARE OCCURENCE IN RAPE!

As for being disrespectful.......that is surely your own opinion. My first post was not an attack on anyone, unlike You.

As for uninformed......thats your own opinion. I make it a rule to always back up what i say with cold hard facts and if you want the links you are welcome to them.

"Assault Rape Pregnancies are Extremely Rare.

There are about 10,000,000 women in Canada old enough to be at risk of rape.1 Around 3,600 assault rapes are reported in

Canada each year2 one rape for every 2,780 women.**

Of the 3,600 women assaulted; approximately 50% are too old or too young to become pregnant. This reduces by half the

number of women at risk of pregnancy as a result of an assault rape.

A woman is fertile about 3 days out of a 30-day-month. There are, therefore, approximately 36 days during a year that a

woman could conceive. This means there is a 10% probability that any one woman might conceive in a year. Since it takes a

healthy couple anywhere from 5 to 10 months to achieve a pregnancy,3 the probability of pregnancy in a traumatic rape

situation is greatly reduced. "

just an instance of one fact.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 6:20pm
And that quote came from....where?

I think I will keep my OB-GYN thanks.

As for my having sex, well lets see, I have had 3 pregnancies and one live birth. What does that tell you? And about what your body does to preapre you to conceive? It releases an egg. THAT is what a womans body does. Women have gotten pregnant from thier partner ejaculating outside of their vagina...but close enough for just one little swimmer to make it inside. THAT is a proven fact. Being under stress has NOTHING to do with conception...all it takes is one live sperm and one live egg and the right timing.

June

Avatar for myshkamouse
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 7:39pm
Wow! You certainly seem to have lots of time on your hands. I can't possibly respond to that entire diatribe so I'll just pick the loosest points (and there were so many to choose from!)...

"Another Argument is that a womans body is her property and that her property is hers to do with as she sees fit.......

While that is true.....we need to be careful what we label as property and what our rights are concerning our "property"

1) It is in this same country that Black slaves were considered the PROPERTY of their white owners ......thus a slave owner could treat his slave as he saw fit."

A slave was a sentient being. A thinking, breathing, feeling human being. A slave was a person who should by definition have had the exact same rights as another person like them. The only difference that "justified" slavery was race. You can't compare an 8 week old fetus to a slave (unless you are a complete racist).

"2) In some cultures in the PRESENT DAY WORLD, women are considered the PROPERTY of MEN. Thus, men are FREE to do as they will with their women. They can kill them, lock them in a house, give them away to other men to give them 'pleasure' , etc etc.

So if it being your property justifies whatever actions you can take towards that person......then is it not hypocritical to criticize slave owners for doing what they did, or criticize those men for mistreating women? They were simply handling their own......"property"."

See my response above. Just insert the word woman rather than slave and sexist rather than racist.

"Another Argument is the "It is not a human yet" argument......

If that were true ...then its not really killing is it?.......or not.......when you kill an animal......which is not a human.......many people will STILL debate with you over the rights of that animal to live. That just because it is not a human does not mean that it does not have the right to live. Talk to your local Vegetarian.

I think it very odd that in America ANIMALS have more rights than children do."

No PC person would say a fetus isnt human. Its just not a sentient human yet. E.G. it doesnt think, feel, etc. It hasnt developed a central nervous system at the stage that 90% of abortions take place.

And a fetus isnt a child. Children have rights, fetus's, before viability, do not.


"Another argument is the " What if the Mother's life is in Danger?"

This is a good argument.......

1) If the Baby is going to DIE anyway......then you are only speeding up the process.

2) If it is a Matter of the Mother's life vs That of the BABY's life......there is one thing i know and that is that if My mother had the chance to choose between HER life and MINE she would choose to save me. Most mothers i know would throw themselves in front of a moving train if it meant that their child's life would be saved......you can make of that what you will."

If a woman's life is in danger, she should have the right to abort. Your mother not withstanding, if a woman has lets say two kids already, and a husband, is sacrificing herself to somehow save the fetus the right choice? And realistically, how many times does a woman sacrifice herself and give birth to a healthy fetus anyway? Please...

"2) It takes 2 to make a baby......not one. That child is your creation also. You have a SAY. If the father really wants to raise the child and the woman does not......is it fair to the man if she aborts the baby?"

Yep. Until a man can carry a fetus to term, its not his choice. Otherwise, worst case scenario (and don't even tell me this would never happen) men could rape women and *force* them to carry their fetus's to term.

"Then there is the RAPE argument

1) Conception rarely happens when a woman is raped.......her body is in too much shock to concieve...."

You are so full of hooey! Show me one scientific study to support your theory! Rape and incest victims get pregnant just like any other group of women who have unprotected sex.



"Both sides of the abortion debate have sooooo much money to pour into their efforts. Why dont we channel this pointless debate into someting more positive?

I think Pro CHOICE and Pro LIFE should work together to ERADICATE! the reasons that women even THINK of having an abortion......such as"

Agreed in part. And some of these are okay ideas...

"1)NO MONEY"


I'd love to see more PL'rs pay for pre and post natal care just for starts!

"2)RAPE- LETS FIGHT TOGETHER FOR TIGHTER RAPE LAWS!!!!!!!"

I thought you claimed rape victims rarely got pregnant?

"Make of my little speech what you will."

Well, like I said, too much time on your hands. Second, lose the constant CAPS it makes it hard to read your posts and if you have valid points, why scream?

MM 27 weeks pregnant w/boy/girl twins

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-19-1999
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 7:41pm
Not trying to argue, just reading thos thread, where in that quote does it state anything about defence mode with the body?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1398894.stm

From the BBC news and I quote:

"Scientists have made a disturbing finding about rape which they believe may explain why the crime has been so common throughout history.

They have found that a single act of rape may be more than twice as likely to make a woman pregnant than a single act of consensual sex."...........

"They found that, of 405 women who had been raped between the ages of 12 and 45, some 6.4% became pregnant.

When women who had been using some form of contraception were removed from the calculation, the figure jumped to nearly 8%.

They compared this finding with a separate study which found the proportion of women in a similar age group who got pregnant from a one-night stand or other one-off act of consensual sex was just 3.1% despite the fact the women were not taking precautions."

Now, granted this is the BBC so it's England, but the last quote I posted there came from New York, USA.

????????????

~Amie




Amie, wife to Ryan, mom to Tyler (10/98), Morgan (11/00), Alex (2/10), and baby #4 due 8/14

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-04-2003
Thu, 06-12-2003 - 10:43am
If you read i think.....post 4 you will see that i too had a quote that discounts your quote about raped women getting just as pregnant as non raped women.

I trust my source...and i suppose you trust yours too.

As for that person who said i was full of hooey...riiiiiiight. I could easily say the same about you but i wont.


If you dont think that a fetus is a life then there is no point in even debating is there?

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-19-1999
Thu, 06-12-2003 - 11:53am
Two questions,

1. Where did your quote come from? Not saying it's not a valid quote, but it's kinda hard to judge based on just a quote with no documentation of where it came from.

2. You were stating that a womans body goes into defence mode when being raped and that proved that pregnancy rarely occurs during rape. Where does your quote say anything about defence mode?

The quote I produced from that study shows that pregnancies from rape stand at between 4 and 8% and pregnancies from a one night stand are around 3 percent. So yes, both instances are rare, but unless those women who got prego from a one night stand were in shock, shock has nothing to do with it.

Honestly, (although I couldn't prove it if I wanted to) in my 8th grade health class this was in our book as an "urban legend", about the shock and rape. Along with stuff like you can't get pregnant while on your period, etc. I couldn't even tell you what the name of the book was! LOL!!! Really, I think it's one of those things that it depends on who you talk to. They could do studies on both ends, think it just depends on the factors of the study. Pregnancy during rape is rare, I'm not arguing that, just not sure it has anything to do with defence mode or shock.

~Amie

Amie, wife to Ryan, mom to Tyler (10/98), Morgan (11/00), Alex (2/10), and baby #4 due 8/14

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-04-2003
Thu, 06-12-2003 - 12:04pm
I got the quote from a canadian website....ill go look up the link again.

I added in the defense mode part from my womens self defense class.

When a body is being attacked especially (in violent rapes )we go through certain changes in our body. Blood rushes to our hands and legs because those are the parts we will most need in order to get away from our attacker (make sense so far)

Now while we are in this Defense mode (some call it fight/or flee) And intercourse should take place the chances of conception become rare. Why? Because the body is not preparing for sexual intercourse. Normally when we engage in sexual intercourse we secrete, expand etc in order to increase pleasure and facilitate conception. When your body is under a brutal attack your brain will not send out those signals that it normally woould to the lower regions of your body. We're under extreme stress,shock and are very tensed up.

Ever tried to have sex while tensed up? Doesnt really work well does it? I think that this is the same thing that happens during rape but on a much grander and horrible scale.

Anyhoo...i was not always aware of this and until i came across some studies on the matter did i understand it. When i read what they had written up it made sense. I think it makes plenty of sense to know that my body can sense when it is being forcefully intruded and sends the necessary signals to aid my defense. See what i mean now?

Anyhoo... i will go get the link.

Pages