Here's something to think about

Avatar for mommastacie
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-20-2003
Here's something to think about
26
Mon, 06-09-2003 - 4:20am
For PLers & PCers both, how far is too far when it comes to abortion? I'm trying to think of how I want to ask this...

Ok, I went to school with a girl who I'll call "Dee" (one year younger than me) who had 7 abortions before her 17th birthday. I'm not sure how many of those had her parents' blessing or that of the fathers, but I often wonder how it has affected her adult relationships (physically & emotionally) and whether she has been even able to give birth since then (10 years later). I do understand the *need* to feel like you own your body and what happens to it, but what about these girls who are out there giving away their bodies to whatever guy will take them up on the offer and, instead of taking responsibility for their actions, throw away a "future" life (or in "Dee"s case 7)?

So my question is... do PCers think the situation with "Dee" above is acceptable? Why or why not? Where do we draw the line when it comes to "Choice"? Should teens (or grown women for that matter) be able to have abortion after abortion to no end just b/c it's *their* bodies? How many abortions are too many? When should they take into consideration the physical & psychological toll it takes on a body and say enough is enough?

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1253

http://www.vcn.bc.ca/~whatsup/APB-Major.html

http://nichole.simonweb.com/~afterabortion/research/DeathsAssociatedWithAbortion.pdf

http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/a/maryb683/marybrown/8wkfetus.htm

Oh, and to the individual who likened an unborn baby to a cow? Does your child moo? I hardly see the comparison when we eat meat for sustenance and women who abort generally (with the exception of medical reasons of course) do it for convenience (ie, a baby, however conception occurred, would "mess up" THEIR lives). Do you eat meat? If not, then don't you think you also fall victim to the very same contradiction you accuse us of? Why is it ok to murder or prevent the life of a human but not ok to eat the meat of another species of animal? Lions hunt & eat other species but I've never heard of them killing their own unless a mental condition (such as rabies) or starvation were factors. If you really want to look at it that way, the only people who are not walking contradictions are PL Vegans. Since when did the spotted owl become more important than a human life however early in its development it may be? Sad, really. For the record, no, I don't agree with hunting animals just for sport, either.

Stacie


Edited 6/9/2003 6:06:37 AM ET by mommastacie


border=0>


Other places you can find me:

Pages

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 06-09-2003 - 3:51pm
"Dee" had some very serious issues, I would wager, and preventing her from having the abortions would have solved...none of them. It's very sad that she was not capable of taking better care of herself.

You really want these girls having kid after kid when they can't even take care of themselves?? You think they are going to bother with pre-natal care? I know someone who took barbituates for the first trimester of her pregnancy because abortion was "against her religion" I wonder how THAT child developed.

The problems with these people have very little to do with abortion.

Your first link, if you read it all the way through, admits that there were factors for which they could not account, making it impossible to draw a definitive conclusion. An effective study would need to rule out *every other influencing factor* in each of these women's lives before they could point to abortion as the cause. Do some women have depression and need counseling after abortion? Of course. All or even most? Hardly. What needs to happen is women feeling that they can make the best decision for themselves, no matter what that may be.

The link to studies indicates there *may* be a link. A lot needs to happen before that is proven.

The .pdf file didn't come out and I'm not sure what the last link was for.

I personally am raising my daughter to be informed, know that her body is her own, and never be afraid to stand up for herself. Should the situation arise, she will have the tools to make the best decision for herself and I pray that all her choices will be legal and safe.

KJ

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 06-09-2003 - 5:25pm
I have a feeling that if Dee had given birth to at least one of these children she would have begun to use birth control. Hopefully. Seven abortions is alot. I know a girl who has had 3 and had a hard time carrying her babies to term...had to stay at the Ronald McDonald house from 6 months on and delivered early with both of her kids....incompetent cervix...result of her abortions.

Do I think 7 abortions is too many? Of course I do, but then I think 1 is too many. I have to agree with Abby that this girl has many problems that the abortions didn't solve...couldn't solve. Having a baby wouldn't solve. She needs help and probably the first place to look would be at home.

As for hunting for sport...I agree...I think it's cruel.

How in the world can a fetus be compared to a cow???

Avatar for myshkamouse
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 06-09-2003 - 6:49pm
Well first, its obvious you are PL so, your questions are rather loaded wouldnt you agree?

I'll answer them non the less.

"So my question is... do PCers think the situation with "Dee" above is acceptable? Why or why not?"

Your anecdotal story, assuming its true (and that's a big assumption to make!), is an example of a system gone horribly wrong. Should abortion be outlawed or restricted because a single person abuses it? If so, you'd have to close down most of America and the world for that matter. Forget about driving, sometimes people get in accidents. Forget about allowing American's to have guns, there are far too many people who abuse the privelage. Forget about sending your kid to school, there are too many teachers who abuse children.

Fact is, you don't change an entire system, that works well for responsible people, because one person might or does abuse it.

"When should they take into consideration the physical & psychological toll it takes on a body and say enough is enough?"

If you are going to use *that* argument you'd better tell women who have let's say more than 5 children "enough is enough." Better insist upon tubals for all women who have given more than one baby up for adoption who couldnt be placed. Better do the same to any woman who has comlications in pregnancy. Please. What an absurd idea.

Abortion is either legal, which it is, with certain restrictions, which there are, or its not. You can't start to micro manage the process because of one hypothetical girl.

"Oh, and to the individual who likened an unborn baby to a cow? Does your child moo?"

Gee that's an intelligent question.

" I hardly see the comparison when we eat meat for sustenance and women who abort generally (with the exception of medical reasons of course) do it for convenience (ie, a baby, however conception occurred, would "mess up" THEIR lives)."

There really isnt any comparison as far as I'm concerned, and I'm a PC vegitarian. But...women don't abort for "convenience," and, people can survive quite well thank you without meat.

" Do you eat meat? If not, then don't you think you also fall victim to the very same contradiction you accuse us of?"

Huh? What "contradiction" to I fall "victim" to? Enlighten me please.

" Why is it ok to murder or prevent the life of a human but not ok to eat the meat of another species of animal?"

Its not okay to murder a sentient being, imo, and that includes humans and animals. I have no qualms preventing the lives of unwanted animals through spay/neuter. I have no qualms with preventing the lives of unwanted humans through tubals/bc and yes, when necessary, through abortion. There is no comparison between a 9 week old fetus, that can't feel as it doesnt have a central nervous system, and the murder of a born human that can. Or the murder of an animal that also can.

" Lions hunt & eat other species but I've never heard of them killing their own unless a mental condition (such as rabies) or starvation were factors."

Wrong. Animals "kill their own" all the time. As do humans. And your point was...what?

The rest of your post is just a continuation of the rant above so I'll sign off here.


MM

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-08-2003
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 1:22am
" Lions hunt & eat other species but I've never heard of them killing their own unless a mental condition (such as rabies) or starvation were factors."

Wrong. Animals "kill their own" all the time. As do humans. And your point was...what?



You're exactly correct in this case. Lions kill the young of rival males all the time. It's a way of making sure the strongest of the pride survives. Chimps also engage in this type of infanticide. It's sad, but it happens. Humans have engaged in infanticide for thousands of years. You don't think that anyone would keep a deformed child 500 years ago, do you? Heck no, it would've been a burden to the entire family/village. It also kept the population strong and healthy.

Rabies is not a "mental condition", it's a disease passed on by a virus.

And that's my 2 cents worth.

BTW, I am PC and I refuse to let the gov't make my uterus gov't property.

TC

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-19-1999
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 10:41am
May be stepping into something here, but I had to ask this....

"But...women don't abort for "convenience,""

So why on Earth do they? I understand some do for heath reasons, rape, incest, but why does a 16 year old girl abort a baby other than having a baby at that time in her life would be inconvenient? They had sex, didn't use protection or it failed now their pregnant and "Can't have a baby now". That is exactly why most women have abortions. notice I said most, I know other circumstances are there, but every single person I have ever known (minus one) who had an abortion had it because it would inconvenience their lives to have an baby at that moment, such as getting in the way of school, or career, etc.

Just curious as to why you think women have abortions.

~Amie

Amie, wife to Ryan, mom to Tyler (10/98), Morgan (11/00), Alex (2/10), and baby #4 due 8/14

Avatar for myshkamouse
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 3:54pm
I shouldnt bother responding to you as I know you arent actually asking that question with an open mind, but, I'll go ahead and give it a try.

"So why on Earth do they? I understand some do for heath reasons, rape, incest, but why does a 16 year old girl abort a baby other than having a baby at that time in her life would be inconvenient? They had sex, didn't use protection or it failed now their pregnant and "Can't have a baby now". That is exactly why most women have abortions."

And "inconvenient" isnt exactly the right term to use for carrying a pregnancy to term as a teenager. More like life altering, or worse, depending on the situation.

My best friend got pregnant be accident when she was 16. She wasnt raped, her birth control failed. She was a little girl herself with a fanatically religious mother who was PL, and would have made her life miserable if she even knew she was having sex, let alone getting pregnant, and an alcoholic father who made her and her sisters life miserable. She was not mentally prepared to tell them about a pregnancy, she wasnt mentally prepared to carry a fetus to term. Having a baby at that time, when her life was a mess already in many ways, she didnt know herself, didnt have the support of her family, would have been a huge mistake. Abortion in her case wasnt for "convenience" it was necessary for her to continue to live her life, finish high school, get out of that horrible house, etc.

Decisions like hers are "convenience" they are the right thing to do.

" notice I said most, I know other circumstances are there, but every single person I have ever known (minus one) who had an abortion had it because it would inconvenience their lives to have an baby at that moment, such as getting in the way of school, or career, etc."

Whatever. What you call "inconvenience" may be the best way for a woman to keep her life together. We have plenty of unwanted children in this world. At 8 weeks, a fetus isnt sentient, its not a thinking, feeling, human being. If having an abortion allows a woman to live her life and keeps an unwanted child from entering this world to continue a cycle of dysfunction in many cases (and yes, adoption is an option but it still requires going through pregnancy and delivery and ISNT the best option for some women), then its the right choice.

"Just curious as to why you think women have abortions."

I *know* women have abortions for many reasons. There are 1.2 million or so each year. Some reasons you or I might agree with, others we, and certainly you, wouldnt. Fact is its not up to you, or to me. Its up to each woman -- thankfully.

MM 27 weeks pregnant w/boy/girl twins

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-19-1999
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 7:25pm
Wow, ok, well I'm not responding because obviously you are a tad to upset over a simple question to really debate this. Wow, chill out, k?

Amie, wife to Ryan, mom to Tyler (10/98), Morgan (11/00), Alex (2/10), and baby #4 due 8/14

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 06-11-2003 - 9:40pm
Well, I have a problem with the excuses you're making for your friend. I, too, got pregnant at 16. I, too had religious parents, and grandparents...was I scared? You bet I was. Was I a little girl? You bet I was. Did I need to finish school and have a life? You bet I did. But it's not an excuse to kill my child. I could have used any one of these excuses too.

Sorry, nobody said life was easy.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 06-12-2003 - 2:04pm
Nobody said life was easy but you seem to be saying that *everyone* in your situation should make your choices. That's not realistic nor does it make sense. You made the choices that worked for YOU. Everyone else has the same right.

My mother left home at 17 and traveled to a city 500 miles away with a high school buddy. She was married by 22 and a mother by 23. At those same ages I was in NO WAY mature enough to make those life choices. Everyone is different.

Continuing a pregnancy is NOT always the best thing to do. Only the person who is pregnant can make that decision.

And I don't feel that Mysh is "making excuses" for her friend. She is pointing out that there are many reasons women have abortions. It is the PL way to dismiss everything other than death or violation as "convenience"

Avatar for myshkamouse
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 06-12-2003 - 2:06pm
Well, I have a problem with the excuses you're making for your friend. I, too, got pregnant at 16. I, too had religious parents, and grandparents...was I scared? You bet I was. Was I a little girl? You bet I was. Did I need to finish school and have a life? You bet I did. But it's not an excuse to kill my child."

First, she didnt "kill" her child she aborted a 9 week old fetus. You are smart enough to know the difference.

And, you werent her. Her reasons werent "excuses." Her life was different than yours. Her father was a raging alcoholic. She had a horrible childhood, was going through all sorts of personal struggles including an eating disorder, drinking and drugs. She was in no position to carry a fetus to term. It would have been an extremely unhealthy pregnancy both in terms of her mental health, and the physical health of a developing fetus.

" There would have I could have used any one of these excuses too."

So you had an abusive alcoholic father? You had bulemia? You binge drank, smoked pot and did other drugs? Really? What a 'coincidence.'

"Sorry, nobody said life was easy."

No, no one did. Which is why sometimes the right choice is a very hard one.

Pages