I don't understand...

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-13-2008
I don't understand...
15
Tue, 09-02-2008 - 12:08am

I have to admit that I am a bit confused on a pro-choice argument. There are many who say that it is just a fetus, and not a baby so they are not killing anything. However, at 5 wks the heart starts beating (http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-5-weeks_1094.bc). So, if the definition of being dead is when the heart stops beating, and the heart is beating at 5 wks, isn't any abortion performed after that point killing a life?

Also, many of you consider yourselves to be mothers when the baby comes out, however I know of at least two people personally who felt very connected to the growing life inside them and were devastated by miscarriages. So I also don't understand how people can say motherhood starts when it leaves the birth canal, when so many are connected to it prior to that.

Note- I am not arguing for or against pro-choice, I just fail to understand the logic.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 01-15-2008
Tue, 09-02-2008 - 2:55am
I've been personally devistared by miscarriages...one to such a point that 5 years later I refuse to let the loss Go. She was and *is*my

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-07-2008
Tue, 09-02-2008 - 6:53am

OK here goes.

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Another requisite for life is the ability to breathe. Without oxygen transfer cells die and the body cannot sustain any functions. As the majority of abortions are carried out before viability they are not ebing killed as they never could survive. Yes, the heart stops beating but the lungs couldn't support life anyway. So, for me, that is a non issue.

<< So I also don't understand how people can say motherhood starts when it leaves the birth canal, when so many are connected to it prior to that.>>

It's a bit like arguing apples and oranges. I believe this so you must believe it. You believe that so you are wrong. I believe it's morally wrong to legislate someone's morals/beliefs as to when life begins. One of the great things about pro choice is that it is CHOICE. It doesn't refuse to acknowledge that everyone has the right to feel differently. I acknowledge someone's attachment to a longed for child in utero. I ALSO accept and acknowledge that a pregnancy in disastrous circumstances may not have the same feeling attached to it.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 04-10-2003
Tue, 09-02-2008 - 8:23am

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Death can also be established by lack of electrical activity in the brain. However, for this argument, *viable* life, and risk to the woman are the imperative factors in establishing her right to choose to abort.

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That's OK. Everyone is different. However, after 2 miscarriages I can assure you that it is very individual. And I can also tell you I was NOT a mother after miscarrying my first pregnancy, but only after my second pregnancy resulted in the birth of my first child, Nicholas. I was devastated by the miscarriages- but it was the loss of that dreams and that potential that devastated me. In all honesty, I believe (my opinion) that is what most women really ARE grieving,as they can't have had a chance to *know* a real person yet.

<< So I also don't understand how people can say motherhood starts when it leaves the birth canal, when so many are connected to it prior to that.>>

Connected to the dreams, the hopes, the plans, the potential. And it's infinitely easier to deal with once you admit that to yourself, IMO.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 05-26-2006
Tue, 09-02-2008 - 12:35pm

"So, if the definition of being dead is when the heart stops beating, "

Not to nitpick. But the legal definition of death "is the cessation of all brain function". It has nothing to do with the heart. After all...people can live for several minutes after their heart stops beating, people can survive heart transplant, people can be kept alive on machines, and as long as their brain is not severely damaged and is capable of supporting their body and their recovery of their heart...they are not dead. Hearts stop beating all the time and people do not die. People die with out brain function. Someone whose heart stops beating can continue to live (either through CPR, treatment, transplant, surgery exc). Someone whose brain is damaged (the brain controls the function of all vital organs) can not.

I just had a friend die from a brain aneurysm a month ago at age 37. His body was functioning on life support (they put him into a induced coma to operate on his brain and put him on life support during and after surgery). He had a heart beat but he had zero brain function after surgery. He was brain dead. He..Noah..the person was dead even if his body was still "alive". They had to drill two holes into his head in an effort to reduce the pressure on his brain and drain the fluid and blood. The swelling was to severe and the aneurysm was located on a spot on his brain (near the cortex) which made operating on it impossible. His brain could no longer function. Aneurysms are a scary thing. There are no signs or symptoms (until they burst), they often kill you on the spot, and even if they are caught and operated on your chances of survival are slim and if you do survive you are almost always suffering from some sort of brain damage either mild (loss of memory, balance, cognition) to severe. Even though his heart was beating...with the help of machines...the moment he was taken off of them...he passed away. The brain is the most necessary organ that we have. It is what gives us life. Hearts are important. They are necessary for our brain's to receive oxygen but they don't define life nor do they define death.

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-19-2006
Tue, 09-02-2008 - 3:47pm

I have been devastated by each and every one of my miscarriages but my first two pregnancies did not make me a mother my third that resulted in my son did.

how ever I see a gray line there because IMO women who deliver still born babies are also mothers.

Also a baby is a term used to describe a certain life stage (generally from birth to one year) just because i CALL my 6 year old my baby does not make him one any more than calling a fetus a baby makes it one.

In debate proper terminology is very important as it lessens a lot of confusion and allows people to debate the actual issues at hand.

so a person (no matter how connected) who is pregnant but has not yet given birth is not a mother and her offspring that has not yet separated from her body is not yet a baby.


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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 09-04-2008 - 12:48pm

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-07-2008
Thu, 09-04-2008 - 1:42pm
I'm not sure what you mean. I was simply stating that it's impossible for a pre viability z/e/f to sustain that function on it's own. Except exteremly rare cases and usually no tfo rvery long.
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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 09-04-2008 - 4:49pm

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iVillage Member
Registered: 05-11-2006
Thu, 09-04-2008 - 9:25pm

""Also, many of you consider yourselves to be mothers when the baby comes out, however I know of at least two people personally who felt very connected to the growing life inside them and were devastated by miscarriages. So I also don't understand how people can say motherhood starts when it leaves the birth canal, when so many are connected to it prior to that. ""


FWIW, I think that's a very personal thing for each woman.

Lori
**Navy Wife to Eddie since Dec 2002**

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-10-2003
Thu, 09-04-2008 - 10:10pm

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Excellent idea! Really make sense worded like that~

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