new here with question

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-08-2006
new here with question
155
Sun, 01-31-2010 - 10:58pm

I've been an occasional lurker here just because I love a good debate, but I rarely get involved because I can get caught up in it and never leave...;) There is a question that I have for all the pro choicers out there.

psalm.png picture by gautreaumom

Pages

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Mon, 02-01-2010 - 9:40am

<>

I wasn't aware that so-called "partial-birth abortion" was only used for elective abortions. Silly me. Oh, wait! It's not used at all anymore, since it was banned. So if it was banned, then how are all those myriad women aborting for convenience after viability having abortions?

But precisely how many abortions occur after viability for the mother's convenience? You say there are more, so how many? 5% of all abortions? 10%? 20%?




Powered by CGISpy.com


Thanks to Heather (blessedmom0508), Keisha (mommy-la-roo) and Spencer (gespenst) for the beautiful signatures!
Lilypie 2nd Birthday PicLilypie 2nd Birthday Ticker
PhotobucketPhotobucket
Photobucket

Photobucket




Powered by CGISpy.com


Thanks

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Mon, 02-01-2010 - 9:47am

<>

Like others, I can't make a decision based on such a dearth of data. What is it about the woman's condition that makes continuing the pregnancy so dangerous?

As far as Tim Tebow's mother, my understanding is that she was told that the treatment she needed for dysentery would cause the fetus irreparable harm, and so it was recommended that she terminate her pregnancy.

But what does this have to do with your discussion? Someone who doesn't get treatment for dysentery while pregnant could become so dehydrated as to start premature labor (before viability or after), or they could die themselves. I don't know enough about medical treatments in the Philippines in the 1980s to know if the treatment for dysentery would have been dangerous to a growing fetus.

So, should we make a law based on the fact that one woman, 23 years ago, survived a pregnancy to go on to have a healthy baby? What sense is there in basing laws off one example?




Powered by CGISpy.com


Thanks to Heather (blessedmom0508), Keisha (mommy-la-roo) and Spencer (gespenst) for the beautiful signatures!
Lilypie 2nd Birthday PicLilypie 2nd Birthday Ticker
PhotobucketPhotobucket
Photobucket

Photobucket




Powered by CGISpy.com


Thanks

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-08-2006
Mon, 02-01-2010 - 10:04am

I only used Tim Tebow as an example because everyone knows about him.

psalm.png picture by gautreaumom

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-08-2006
Mon, 02-01-2010 - 10:08am

Thank you.

psalm.png picture by gautreaumom

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2009
Mon, 02-01-2010 - 10:29am

< The argument that I have always heard to this was the mother possibly losing her life if she carries the child full term. >

This is determined by the woman's OB, and all decisions on her care should be made by her and her Doctor, not politicians, not you, not me. I am not a physician, and the only pregnancy that I have intimate knowledge of is my own. So, I cannot answer your medical questions concerning the diagnosis of health issues or conditions due to pregnancy for anyone else.

It all comes down to whether or not you trust OBs to have the judgement needed to make these types of decisions.

And whether or not you think that women have the ability to make ethical decisions about childbearing.

If you think that laws are needed to override physician's and women's judgements, then you don't trust women and physicians.

Physicians are bound by ethics as to when not to end a pregnancy at the request of a woman, just as they are bound not to cut off a healthy limb on demand.

So, unless you think that OBs and Gynecologists are, as a rule, likely to defy medical ethics, there is no need for anyone else to be sticking their nose into the exam room.

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-04-2004
Mon, 02-01-2010 - 10:35am

<<>>

Nobody here got "huffy" in their replies to you. My "answer" was also simple, fact-based and included links. Your reply seemed to imply that you already knew everything about preemies, rendering my response pointless.

Have you been on a debate board before? You might consider pulling up the old big-girl drawers if you're going to hang around.

Photobucket



Lilypie Second Birthday tickers



Lilypie Fifth Birthday tickers



Photobucket
Photobucket

Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2009
Mon, 02-01-2010 - 10:40am

< As in the case of Tim Tebow's mother. Her dr suggested an abortion due to her health stating that she probably couldn't carry the child full term. >

Just an FYI - The validity of that story has been called into question. Abortion has been illegal in the Phillipines since 1930 - even to save the life of the woman. There are very harsh penalties for physicians who do perform them.

Physicians and midwives who perform abortions in the Philippines face six years in prison, and may have their licenses suspended or revoked, and that women who receive abortions – no matter the reason – may be punished with imprisonment for two to six years.

It is highly unlikely that a physician would have suggested an abortion. If she did seek one, it would have been illegal, and therefore very dangerous.

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-04-2004
Mon, 02-01-2010 - 10:47am

This is a beautiful story, but it doesn't change anything WRT why abortion needs to remain safe, legal and accessible for those who need/desire it.

You mentioned in your first post that you would not have your mind changed by our replies to you. Please understand that anecdotal stories like this will not change the minds of PC'ers on this board, either. Furthermore, the fact that baby did ultimately pass away, while heartbreaking, is only further proof that birthing babies at 24 weeks is not even remotely "simple", as you referred to it in your OP.

Photobucket



Lilypie Second Birthday tickers



Lilypie Fifth Birthday tickers



Photobucket
Photobucket

Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 06-04-2004
Mon, 02-01-2010 - 10:55am

Again, these anecdotal stories are not necessarily compelling, at least they aren't to me.

I have personally been in a situation where my child very nearly ended up a micropreemie, and while I would have been thrilled to have her survive and live a normal life, I was very well-versed in the actual risks she faced. I am thankful to my doctors for being frank and realistic with me about what kind of life she might lead, if she lived, after being born at 27 weeks like she almost was.

Stories like yours are beautiful, and I can understand why the PL camp likes to use them to further their agenda, but they are not the norm for babies born much too early. I think that you do more harm than good when you offer stories like this to some people, because you may be proffering false hope, which can be misleading. Many - if not most - of these stories do not have similar happy endings.

Photobucket



Lilypie Second Birthday tickers



Lilypie Fifth Birthday tickers



Photobucket
Photobucket

Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2009
Mon, 02-01-2010 - 11:02am

( So if problems would have arose, why not let her carry the child for as long as she can andif possible, after the age of viablitiy, take the child? )

Why do you think that this is not the case? Do you have evidence or statistics that show women are choosing differently than Mrs. Tebow did.

Interestingly enough, the Ethical guidelines for OB's put out by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists talk about how difficult it is to get the woman to put her health over the health of the pregnancy.

Their guidelines have sections on how to deal with woman that will risk her health and life before endangering a pregnancy - and how unethical it is to try to force or coerce her to do so (for instance, refusing to get chemotherapy until after the birth, keep going on with the pregnancy despite ongoing permanent damage to her kidneys, etc)

Read for yourself:

Concerning Patient Choice on procedures
http://www.acog.org/from_home/publications/ethics/co395.pdf

Maternal Decisionmaking:
http://www.acog.org/from_home/publications/ethics/co321.pdf (includes a case study about a women refusing c-sections recommended by physicians)
In the above: read paragraph 5 on Page three, about how fetal surgery has raised unrealistic expectations on viability and the outcomes of very premature births.

Concerning respecting maternal end-of-life decisions:
http://www.acog.org/from_home/publications/ethics/co385.pdf

Nothing on how to talk a woman out of ending a healthy late term pregnancy. Nothing. Don't you think that there would at least be a mention of it if indeed this was a problem that OBs were facing?

I think that you have been getting false information on what is or is not happening inside individual doctors' offices. I think that you are assuming that a politician would only introduce legislation that addresses an actual problem, instead of trying to create the impression that there is a problem.




Edited 2/1/2010 11:11 am ET by mom_carmina

Pages