Poverty, bad timing, too young, don't

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-05-2003
Poverty, bad timing, too young, don't
17
Thu, 11-06-2003 - 9:25am
want children and never did, not in love with the father, etc are all some of the reasons many women give for their abortion decisions. And for most PC's any reason is good enough to abort. But, when a man gets a woman pregnant, and uses the same reasoning to leave the pregnant woman, we bastardize him, we degrade him, we gripe that he is a misrable POS, etc. We say that they are irresponsible and only think with their penis, we say that they are dead beats, we say that he is not good enough to be a father etc. And, when these men move on and do create a family that they want, we say that they are doing the child they left behind an injustice and hate him all the more.

If it is good for the gander ladies, why is it not good for the goose? What is the big difference other than the fact that the father not acknowledging his obligation and the child's life doesn't lead to the child's death - but the mother's actions do. In my book, I'd much rather not have a father than not be here.

Pages

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-04-2003
Thu, 11-06-2003 - 10:24am
Because abortion is a pregnancy issue while the "deadbeat dad" thing deals with a born child. That's the difference.

Once again we come back to the fact that not everyone is certain that a first-trimester fetus is a "person," or will be aware that it is being aborted.

And then there's also the outrage over the fact that there are a very few just plain irresponsible and/or callous women who would indeed abort right up to the third trimester electively and would do it again.

I was reading last night in Backlash (yes, I know, it's a biased source - I'll concede that! ;-)) about how the decrease in birth control info access and sex education in the late 80's caused a spike in abortion rates... presumably because at-risk teen girls were no longer getting birth control info distibuted to them at the same rate??

If a woman doesn't want children and never did, she should get her tubes tied. Unfortunately, very young women usually do change their minds about this. Up until I was 24 I certainly would have said "no way!" if you asked me if I wanted kids.

Men, in their own interest, should wise up and INSIST on wearing a condom. If they would just wear one, it decreases the risk of:

- catching an STD

- transmitting an STD if they have one

- getting a woman pregnant when she doesn't want it

- getting a woman pregnant when she has lied and said she is "on the Pill" or is "sterile" but really wants to get pregnant, and will file for paternity

I have no sympathy for men who talk a woman into having unprotected sex and then won't face the consequences. If it's a condom accident, that's another story. In such a case I hope the woman would seek out EC, unless she is morally opposed.

I also have no sympathy for women who allow themselves to be talked into unprotected sex. Condom effectiveness is supposedly 96% with standard use, 98-99% with "perfect" use. Decreases one's risk substantially, it seems to me.

>>I'd much rather not have a father than not be here>>

Would you know the difference? Maybe you believe differently - again, ensoulment at conception thing. Maybe your soul would know the difference. Maybe God would know the difference. Me, I can't say. I don't think I would "miss" an experience I never had.

I almost had a sibling, apparently - my mom, when she went in to get her tubes tied and also to get a routine D&C (fibroids run in my family and have to be "cleaned out" every decade or so - yuck, really looking forward to that one, NOT!) discovered she had been pregnant. The doctor essentially discovered this when the D&C was over. It was too late. My mom does not seem devastated about this - nor does she seem blithe about it. She seems wistful, as anyone would be thinking on a thing that might have been but was not. But my thoughts certainly did not extend to, "oh my poor little brother or sister, who I never got to know!" What happened, happened. She has dealt with it, my Dad has apparently dealt with it, I have dealt with it.

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-27-2003
Thu, 11-06-2003 - 10:39am
Just wanted to reply to your last paragraph. This can't really be compared with abortion. Even I know that was an accidental death. No one chose to have that life extinguished.
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-05-2003
Thu, 11-06-2003 - 10:40am
First, thank you, your post was very interesting and polite. I appriciate that.

Secondly, my point was that if a father leaves a woman when he finds out that she is pregnant. Not after the child is born. Shouldn't he have the same choice NOT to be a father as a woman does? We deamonize the men, but exhault the women who turn away from the unborn. I don't understand the difference in it.

Men and women both should use condoms. Women should never let a man have enough power to convince her not to use condoms during sex, especially casual sex. I hate to say this, but if she gives into his request for unprotected sex, she is as responsible for the outcome as he is, you know what I am saying?

I agree with the tying of tubes if a woman's intent is to never have children, but until recently, a woman had to be 23 and have two children before most doctors would do this. I think things have changed a bit. But, abortion is still cheaper than a tubaligation, so it is still used by some as bc over prevention.

And you are correct in saying that I would not know that I was not here had I been aborted. But, no one really knows that they are not 'here' based on that, do they? My point was that if I had a choice to be a bastard child or unborn, I would definately be without a father (as I was most of my life - although I had two great step-fathers).

As far as my feelings regarding my mother's abortion and the life lost to us, I was aware of the pregnancy and the abortion. In that, I would be the first to admit that I may suffer from survivor syndrome, which is being studied more and more in regards to siblings who know of and understand the loss of another through abortion. I understand with complete clearity that I was no more than a choice - and that is not a real reaffirming feeling of love and want. I am sure not all feel the way that I do about a sibling's termination, but not all are privy to the information as it is happening. For me, it has been a terrible thought to know that I was nothing until my mother decided she has a want and need for me. Her opinion of me does not make me who or what I am. Do you understand what I am trying to say fricky? No other human should be allowed to place a value or no value on another human's life.

Again, thank you for your civil and informative post. I really did enjoy reading and responding to it.

A.

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-27-2003
Thu, 11-06-2003 - 10:45am
I totally agree with you. Of course, as with Post 2, people are only worried if the child is born. Funny how if it is one person's responsibility to determine if a life lives or dies, the government hands over the rights, but if it involves 2 people, can't kill the infant, and both individuals involved must pay to keep the life alive. I still agree in child support, but if you are going to give women the right to abort their fetus when the man they are sleeping with clearly does not want the child, then you shouldn't be forcing the man to pay for a child he never wanted. Child support should be reserved for those instances where the man made it clear he would be around (obvious - marriage), and then he bails. Proof may be hard to find in some instances, but this is why women need to think before they have sex.
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-05-2003
Thu, 11-06-2003 - 11:16am
Exactly. It is kind of like having your cake and eating it too. A woman can bail on a pregnancy, but a man cannot. It is still cheaper for a woman to abort than it is for a man to go to court, pay for a lawyer and filing fees to give up parental rights. And be that woman on welfare, he cannot do this at all unless another man (new dh) is willing to adopt that child as his own.

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-04-2003
Thu, 11-06-2003 - 4:09pm
>>Women should never let a man have enough power to convince her not to use condoms during sex, especially casual sex. I hate to say this, but if she gives into his request for unprotected sex, she is as responsible for the outcome as he is, you know what I am saying?>>

Hey, we DO agree on something! ITA, 100%.

Fricky :0)

Funny anecdote from my teen years:

When I was 15 (and definitely still a virgin) and had my learners permit to drive, one time my Mom and I picked up my older friend and her boyfriend at her house. Well, something slipped out of my friend's backpack in the back seat apparently...

So a few days later on a weekend I came downstairs to find my Mom and Dad looking pretty glum and worried. "What's the matter?" I asked. My Dad wouldn't look me in the eye and started to leave the room. "No! You stay!" my Mom said to him, and he sat back down. "Sweetie, uh... we need to talk to you about something..." she said VERY hesitantly.

"What?" I said.

"Something... we found... in the car... you know..."

At this point I feared she'd found a cigarette butt or something (I'd tried smoking by then). "No, Mom. I don't know... what are you talking about??"

...long silence, worried looks. Then my Mom burst out:

"OH HONEY - NO MATTER WHAT, WE'RE JUST SO GLAD YOU LISTENED TO US AND YOU'RE BEING SAFE!!"

I truly had no idea what she was talking about. "WHAT?!" I said.

"Oh come on, you don't have to lie to us. We found it in the car!"

"WHAT, Mom?!"

"A condom!"

I was stunned. Not only was I not having sex at all, but my Mom was throwing me the double whammy of pretending not to be mad but rather to be glad I had "safe sex"... when I hadn't had sex. AT ALL!

I'm still not sure they ever believed me when I told them it must have fallen out of my friend's bag.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 11-06-2003 - 4:39pm
LOL! That *is* funny! Hey, when I came home from college once, my parents had received an AIDS information brochure listing high-risk behaviors. So they sit me down and ask me what some of them are. At the time, I honestly had never HEARD of some of them. I said "why are you asking ME?" I mean, I was no innocent but sheesh! Plus I think I had only just walked in the door. There I am looking for some of Mom's homemade cookies and I'm getting quizzed about golden showers. Surreal.

KJ

ps. One note about condoms, since the topic keeps coming up, they DO break and they DO slip off, even when they are appropriately sized.

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-04-2003
Thu, 11-06-2003 - 4:56pm
yeah, I know condoms aren't perfect. You really do have to check the expiration date, and you do have to pay attention to how the package says to store them.

Use, though, can contribute to condom failure as well as the age of the condom or just plain defective ones. The slippage thing tends to happen when you "wait" too long when you're both done before the man pulls out (sorry for the sex ed which I'm sure everyone knows already, it's a little off-topic!). Also the man not "securing" it when pulling out can cause it to slip. I learned this one time, the hard way, and had to go and get EC.

We use the spermicidal ones to be doubly sure, and I'm thinking of getting a backup barrier method for myself to be *triply* sure (I can't go on hormonal birth control). But if we manage to fall in that 1-4%, well, since we've talked about having kids/a kid, I'd have it, then tie the tubes. I've been quizzing moms in my field and they all say that it's not too hard to balance this career with *one* baby, but two or more makes it more difficult.

According to most sources I know, with "perfect" use the condom plus spermicide is 98-99% effective. With "average" use it's 95-96%. But if use is "poor" its effectiveness is down in the 80%'s.

Avatar for munchies
iVillage Member
Registered: 04-12-2003
Thu, 11-06-2003 - 7:32pm
Then there are those of us who have reactions to the spermicide.

Kim mom to Brad, Matt, Emma, Sarah, and Meagan

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-05-2003
Thu, 11-06-2003 - 8:03pm
LOL, that is a great story. It reminds me of the time my step dad came home early and I was in the shower - fiance waiting in living room, and I walked out naked into the living room to see him there!!! I was so shocked and scared that I stood there dripping wet with my mouth open - knowing that I was going to die of embarrassment. We laugh about it today though. And he tells me how proud he was to find condoms on the table waiting to be used.

Pages