iVillage Member
Registered: 03-28-2003
Mon, 06-16-2003 - 6:30pm
Someone mentioned that making abortions illegal will decrease the number of deaths, however statistics prove that is not hte case. Abortions remain a somewhat constant percentage of pregnancies regardless if abortions are legal or not. When you take in consideration the extremelly high risk of death/permanent injury that the mother faces undergoing an illegal abortion, it is easily seen that legal abortions actually saves lives. More so, legal abortion is not punishing poor women because richer women will travel to a country where abortion is legal.

From CNN:

"Worldwide, about 35 of every 1,000 women of childbearing age -- 3.5 percent -- have abortions each year, the report said. About 26 million women have legal abortions each year, and about 20 million have illegal abortions."

Numbers are very similar, and considering that:

"In Africa, an estimated 680 of every 100,000 women who undergo an abortion die of complications, researchers said. In Canada, which has one of the lowest abortion death rates, the study said there were 0.1 deaths per 100,000 abortions." (Funny to note that is legal in Canada, but not in Africa, and which country has more abortions?)

It is easy to see that more lives are lost in countries were abortions are illegal, if you count both the number of women and the feti that die.

Family planning essay from Canada:

"The legalisation of abortion has almost no impact on the number of abortions performed. In some countries where abortions are illegal, in Latin America and eastern Europe, there are two to four times as many abortions (and higher mortality rates of women) as in Western European countries where abortions are free. The only thing legalizing abortion does is give women access to safe abortions. If we really also want to reduce abortions, what works best is to reduce the demand for it. But our efforts to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies are almost invisible: they hardly compare to our campaigns to, say, get people to wear seat belts or register their guns. "

Legal or not legal, abortions will still occur, and is not me the only one that says it!!!


"Hundreds of thousands of women suffer long-or short-term disabilities due to complications arising from unsafe abortions. In low-income countries, mainly in the developing world, a total of approximately 200 women die each day as a result of unsafe abortion."

Each DAY, people, 200 women die EACH DAY. Many more are permanently injured, or have the babies abandoned in a trash can if they dont succeed on their abortions....

Making abortions illegal will force some women to travel to countries were it is legal to have one, therefore taking more time and increasing the number of late term abortions. If for you a zygote or an embryo is a human life, a late term fetus will be even more inhumane, dont you think? a late term fetus might even be able to feel pain, while a few weeks old embryo isnt.

Facing reality:

"Travel to England and availability of abortion to non-residents has insulated Ireland from the worst consequences of the current abortion regime. However the necessity to travel outside the State does result in a relatively high number of Irish abortions being performed at 12 weeks gestation or later, compared to residents of England and Wales. Gynaecologists advise that abortion in the first trimester is significantly preferable to a later abortion, from the point of view of the woman's health. (Section 3.6)"

Ok, here I proved w hard numbers my point that PC people are more PL than the PLers. Having the choice legal saves more lives. Is not a ridiculous commment (as mentioned), is backed up by numbers.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-21-2003
In reply to: litttleme
Mon, 06-16-2003 - 7:51pm
First, this is based on data that was done by survey, there are no true figures to back up this report. "Researchers compiled statistics from surveys in 65 countries and used World Health Organization estimates for countries in which data was unavailable. They collected data on unplanned pregnancy from 49 countries and used local surveys to estimate rates for countries in which complete information was unavailable.

Worldwide abortion and unplanned pregnancy figures from previous years were unavailable, so it was difficult to say whether rates were rising or falling, Tew said."

Second, your first link explains the disparity. In the countries where abortion is illegal there is also a lack of access to good contraceptive care. "Western Europe had the lowest abortion rate, 11 per 1,000 women, although its abortion laws are similar to those in Eastern Europe.

Researchers said the disparity could be because of the greater availability and use of contraceptives in the West."

Your next link is an op-ed and she does not state where she gets her numbers. The following link is from Planned Parenthood. It is not a non-biased site. Most PLers see it in the same way that you would see a link I might post from National Right to Life Campaign. Same for the next link. Give me sites without the rhetoric and then we'll talk.

Edited 6/16/2003 7:53:56 PM ET by cl-munchies


Mom to Brad, Ma

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-28-2003
In reply to: litttleme
Tue, 06-17-2003 - 4:38pm
Ok, sure, I'll play.... from your site:

Claim:'It's not a baby/person - it's just a blob of tissue'


When a woman is pregnant, science tells us that the new life she carries is a complete and fully new human being from the moment of fertilization.

Where it says that??? they are making that up!! complete and fully human being??? heck, im a science student, nose deep in books and can't find that anywhere. It has a full set of chromosomes, yeah... but so does your hair. It has no complete nevous system, completelly dependent on its mother for nutrition, oxygen, etc....

By the time most abortions can be performed, the baby already has a beating heart and identifiable brain waves.

So? cows have beating hearts and set of brain waves and we eat steak.

The baby living in her mother is as distinct and unique a new person/human being as you are from me, and as deserving of protection under the law as we are.

The thing living there is a parasite, completely dependant on the mother for life. Even the mother will lose calcium from her bones if the she is not getting good nutrition. The only thing that separates teh fetus from the mom is a different set of chromosomes. Can't feel, cant think, cant decide if it wants to be a dr or an artist...

The baby every mother carries as she faces a life and death decision has a beating heart at 18 days after fertilization and brain waves as early as six weeks after fertilization. Most abortions are not performed until nine weeks of the pregnancy.

The heart can be beating, but is not fully functional. The AV and SA nodes start forming and generating electrical impulses that make the primitive heart beat, but that doesnt mean is completely formed. Don't know at what age of gestation the heart is fully formed tho, but I am guessing at around 2 months, not 3 weeks. Even then, the heart is not exactly as an adult, since it has "holes" (foramen ovale for example) and other things that exist in the fetus only that adults don't have. Is not a fully functional heart in teh true meaning until after teh baby is born. Besides, legally a person can be dead even if the heart is still beating. Some people considered brain dead are kept alive for short periods of time, hearts beating, to harvest their organs. The drs that eventually unplug teh devices are not considered murderers, after all, the person was already dead. A beating heart means nothing.

Brain waves are weak and random, mostly from forming neurons. The brain, again, is not fully functional. Even fish have more complex and advanced brain waves than a 3 week old embry, and there is even research that say fish are not developed enough to feel pain!!!

"Even RU 486 chemical abortions can't be done until after six weeks."

Where do they get that? It can and IS used in early preg terminations.

In the U.S. RU-486 is to be taken within than 49 days after the start of the last menstrual period. It is an antiprogestin.

RU-486 facilitates self-administered abortion, easily obtained in the earlist days of pregnancy. (from an anti abortion site! they like to contradict themselves, dont they?)

Mifepristone's (RU-486 other name) potential goes beyond early abortion. It has proven 99% effective as an emergency contraceptive. It can also be used as a monthly birth control pill, as well as a treatment for breast and prostate cancer, meningioma, Cushing's syndrome and other conditions. (so it is from PP, but is the most obvious place to seek that info since they are providers of abortions, duh!)

well, this is it for now... id keep playing but I gotta go to study so that I can have a great future that I wouldnt otherwise have if i get pregnant and FORCED to have the baby. (as if we already didnt have enough stupid laws telling us how to live our lives to add more.)

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-21-2003
In reply to: litttleme
Tue, 06-17-2003 - 6:35pm
Did you read my post? I said that I consider your links as reliable as the ones I mentioned. I did not claim that those sites have the answers. I do not use those sites for information without using a disclaimer and giving examples of corroberating information from "neutral" sites. So you must really want to avoid your class work to go looking for information that I made no claims about.

As for the rest of your rant, I just shake my head. When you want to debate rationally, let me know. And for the record, a fetus is not a tapeworm.


Mom to Brad, Ma