Universal Health Care Reduces Abortions

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2009
Universal Health Care Reduces Abortions
76
Tue, 03-16-2010 - 2:08pm

"Countless arguments have been advanced for and against the pending bills to increase health-care coverage. Both sides have valid concerns, which makes the battle tight. But one prominent argument is illogical. The contention that opponents of abortion should oppose the current proposals to expand coverage simply doesn't make sense.

How health care discourages abortion
Increasing health-care coverage is one of the most powerful tools for reducing the number of abortions -- a fact proved by years of experience in other industrialized nations. All the other advanced, free-market democracies provide health-care coverage for everybody. And all of them have lower rates of abortion than does the United States."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/12/AR2010031202287.html

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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Tue, 03-30-2010 - 7:55pm

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Since the current health care bill just approved is not UHC, there is no reason that it should be applied as a means to verify my claims. It is irrelevant to my argument.

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Does that mean I don't have any or that I'm clearly wrong? Of course not. You could have found them easily, as I did. If you'd like me to show evidence for my cited stats, I'd be happy to provide them:

www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf

Remember that there's quite a bit of difference between "didn't provide the source until I asked for it" and "refused to provide the source when I asked for it." I don't typically fall into the latter category.

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Of course not. But my now cited study does.

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Actually, you said I made it sound as if it was the sole reason and that was my fault. If I was making the argument that it was the sole reason, then I would be absolutely incorrect. Again, you are drawing conclusions based upon your oversimplification of my claim.

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Actually, that was the exact word you used. Here is what you wrote in post #10:

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I mean, if you want to continue arguing that you didn't write that, fine, but it's there. Unless you'd like to contend that someone else is posting under your user name...

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And this is anecdotal as well. Do you have evidence to support applying this statement of money's relative insignificance to women's stated reasons for choosing abortion?

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Absolutely! But I am basing my argument on evidence from studies analyzing women's stated reasons for having abortions. You are claiming those reasons are at best oversimplified and at worst inaccurate, and have yet to show evidence (beyond anecdotal, of course, since you won't consider my anecdotes) to prove it. The burden is on you to show how the evidence I have cited is wrong, if you disagree with it.

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I look forward to reading your evidence supporting this claim.

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But I have now, and at no point did I indicate that I would not show evidence. Remember that the lack of shown evidence does not prove either that there is none or that I refuse to show it.

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You too have made claims that you have not shown evidence for. I have done this courtesy for you, so now that you have made the claim that my evidence is obviously inaccurate, I look forward to your evidence to the contrary.

As a side note, I'd like to say that I know this discussion could have become nasty, and I'm glad it has not.




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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Tue, 03-30-2010 - 7:56pm
Oops, should have read ahead. Thanks!




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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Tue, 03-30-2010 - 8:05pm

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Then the onus is on you to show (beyond gut feelings and anecdotes) that you are right.

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I haven't seen anyone so far making light of this choice. I certainly haven't. This speaks again to my assessment in post #11 that you don't think money concerns is a viable reason to have an abortion.

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Talk about making light of decisions to have medical procedures, sheesh! My gallstones caused me almost three years of attacks because my doctors kept misdiagnosing my condition. My gallbladder surgery cost $5,000, which my insurance company initially refused to pay on the basis that I had the procedure on my 19th birthday and that's when the company quit insuring me under my parents' policy on the basis that I wasn't a full-time student (because I was having surgery at the beginning of the quarter, duh!). It took my parents almost a year to get the company to cover it, during which time I went without insurance because I couldn't be on my parents' policy anymore and I couldn't get insurance otherwise. I got a terrible kidney infection that almost led to dialysis because I didn't have insurance and didn't get treatment when I first got a UTI.

I'm sure you brought that up as an example of what a trivial decision some procedures are, and how abortion is so different from them. But medical procedures are medical procedures, and in this country they can cost a lot of money. If my parents had known ahead of time that the insurance company would fight covering the surgery, they probably would have told me to just deal with the twice-or-thrice-weekly blindingly painful attacks. They thought I was faking it anyway.

Now, I have anecdotes and hard evidence showing that money is a major factor in most women's decision to continue or end a pregnancy. You say that's not the case. Where is your evidence?




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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Tue, 03-30-2010 - 8:07pm
Add to that my example that my L&D hospital stay cost $36K, and that's a whole lot more than a couple years of care for a healthy child. I haven't spent anywhere near that much to care for Elizabeth.




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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Tue, 03-30-2010 - 8:10pm

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You mean the assumptions I made based on concrete evidence? If I shouldn't believe that this study is correct (or, as you have suggested, that the study is wrong), then what should I accept? What evidence do you have that supports your own claim, that money is not the sole factor or even a major factor in women's choice to abort?




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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Tue, 03-30-2010 - 8:22pm

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From Post #16:
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From Post #22:
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From Post #23:
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There's a whole lot of difference between "not as major" and "not a major" when discussion women's choices for having an abortion. I'll agree that you have not said money is not a consideration at all. But you have, at this point, been asked by more than one person to provide evidence for some of these claims you have stated above, that the people who said money was the primary factor are either lying or that the studies themselves are incorrect. You have said the former outright, and the latter is implied. You have made much of the fact that I did not provide a source immediately for my claims, but now you have been asked on numerous occasions to do the same. Will you step up to the plate, and support your claims with actual evidence?




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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Tue, 03-30-2010 - 8:23pm
What about the evidence for the points you did make?




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iVillage Member
Registered: 02-15-2005
Wed, 03-31-2010 - 10:21am

Vitriol? Nah, not even close. I made a comment about the ugly


iVillage Member
Registered: 04-20-2009
Wed, 03-31-2010 - 2:42pm

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If you had left it at just that then I would agree that was what you were saying but you didn't.


Oh, goodness. Show me where I've said that having and raising a child is cheaper than not having and raising a child. Because I know that I've never said that, yet you keep insisting that I did. So show me where you're getting this from.


See, I never made claims that need support of data.


Yes, you have. Holly spoke of them in a post above mine.


YOU gave me a link to a study that proved a ONE percent difference in my original point to her.


Again with the one percent! You cannot take 74 minus 73 and pretend like that 1 means anything because it doesn't. When you have 100 women, and 74 of them say that finances is a major contributing factor in their reason for an abortion, that's major. Likewise, when you take the same 100 women and 73 of them

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iVillage Member
Registered: 04-20-2009
Wed, 03-31-2010 - 2:50pm

My non-complicated, vaginal delivery cost

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