Let's get things going here, ladies! (m)

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-19-2003
Let's get things going here, ladies! (m)
131
Wed, 03-26-2003 - 5:01pm
How about a simple discussion to get things moving? (Is there such a thing?)

Smokers - should moms who smoke breastfeed their babies? I'm only referring to cigarettes here, not marijuana or other drugs. Is a bf'er who smokes doing more harm to her baby than good?

Michelle

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 04-08-2003 - 12:02am
"How do you know the effects of anti-bodies don't wear off?? Is this just your opinion as well or do you seriously have some pretty astounding info to back that up. Seriously, Fio....I want to know."

No, I have nothing (yet) to back it up. It is just good ole' gut feeling. I feel it is REALLY important, otherwise mother nature wouldn't have put them there, and they wouldn't already be making a difference, right? ;-)

"Why do you feel that childhood diseases are directly related to formula intake?? what about other environmental factors??"

I obviously believe in other environmental factors, and genetics and all. It is just, that from what I can see, most of the time when a study is done that is NOT done by someone who has some sort of profit to gain ::sounds of change clinking around in pocket::, it ends up showing up as being well-done (i.e. takes into consideration factors like these, education level, etc.). whenever i come across anything that promotes bf as negative in any way, when you dig deeper, you find that money or SOME BENEFIT has changed hands somewhere along the way. That is why I have SO LITTLE FAITH in these companies. AFter all, who is to gain from showing bf as being positive for humanity? Sure, it's nice to hear for all us bf'ers, but in reality, who gains? No one really. I do not get more money in my pocket directly b/c of a study coming out promiting bf as a Very Good Thing. Nor do you, nor does anyone else. So why would we say it was better if it wasn't?

" What about the fact that medical advancements is allowing even the sickest of babies survive. Wouldn't that add to your count?? Wouldn't the fact that we are NOT a society of "survival of the fittest" play into that?? I don't disagree with you regarding the added benefits of bm. I also believe that if my children were exclusively bf'd their eczema wouldn't have been so bad. I believe that...BUT, that doesn't change the fact that things happen DESPITE your best efforts....kwim??"

Definately! I'm not saying that a kid who lives in a family where EVERYONE gets sick with astham won't get it if he's bfed. But yk, it might not be so severe, eh?

I was astounded at something I heard recently. The midwife who was the back-up at Nyssa's birth (and Sandrine's for that matter) has just been diagnosed as diabetic within the past year or yera and a half. She is around 45-50. She says ALL her relatives in her family have had diabetes. It is a given. About as much as it is a given that I WILL have a male child who is colour blind if I ever have any boys (I carry that gene from all directions possible...). She knew it would happen someday...but it just kept NOT happening. Where all her family were diagnosed in their teens or twenties, she is pushing 50 almost. Why the lateness? Well, it is obviously just more anecdotal evidence, so no one has to believe it necessarily, but she is the ONLY person in her family who REALLY takes care of herself. I mean REALLY. She eats organic health foods only, eats no dairy, eats mainly vegetarian meals (not all), exercises regularily, doesn't smoke. These are ALL contributing factors, and perhaps had she just done one of them (i.e. regular exercise, or not smoking) perhaps it wouldn't have been so noticeable...but I think it is REALLY interesting, the large distance btwn her and the rest of her family and relatives who have diabetes and were diagnosed much younger, AND with a more severe type to begin with (i.e. they had to start taking insulin right away, whereas she controlled hers with diet for quite some time).

So...take a family full of bfed people who all get diabetes at 45 and ONE non-bf kid who gets diabetes at 35 or 40...you can't really blame it only on the non bfing of that person, and I can't accredit her healthy lifestyle completely in her case, but I do say with that kind of outcome one can't help but imagine it HAS to have some impact, eh?

(and FWIW I don't think there was anything to do with bf/ff in her family...she bf her daughter, so maybe in the years to come her daughter will be lucky and not get diabetes so early, esp, if she eats well like her mom...but she was part of a generation that were all not bfed...).

" Just because someone is bf'd doesn't mean that bm is the end all be all of human existence."

I realize this.


:-)

Avatar for cl_sunny_side_up
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Mon, 04-07-2003 - 11:20am
LMAO.....ok, it seems we both agree on the fact that we know *NOTHING*!! LOL...


I think that alot of the illness you listed are infact due not only to genetics, but a sedentary lifestyle, environment not limited to what we eat and breathe. You're right....every little bit adds to it. Everything is bad for you one minute....and not bad the next. What's a parent to do??


I knew you wouldn't share my opinion on the improvement of formula, but I thought it wa worth a try;)


How do you know the effects of anti-bodies don't wear off?? Is this just your opinion as well or do you seriously have some pretty astounding info to back that up. Seriously, Fio....I want to know.


I'm not kidding myself about toxins.....but IMO, to eliminate a huge deposit of them, that is from ciagrettes is a pretty big deal.


Why do you feel that childhood diseases are directly related to formula intake?? what about other environmental factors?? What about the fact that medical advancements is allowing even the sickest of babies survive. Wouldn't that add to your count?? Wouldn't the fact that we are NOT a society of "survival of the fittest" play into that?? I don't disagree with you regarding the added benefits of bm. I also believe that if my children were exclusively bf'd their eczema wouldn't have been so bad. I believe that...BUT, that doesn't change the fact that things happen DESPITE your best efforts....kwim?? Just because someone is bf'd doesn't mean that bm is the end all be all of human existence. Does it give a baby a jump start for the most part?? Probably. Are there sick bf'd babies out there?? Yes.....just like any other baby. Yes, bf'd babies ON THE WHOLE are not a sick as ff'd babies. I don't deny that. I fully accept that. Yet, my position and opinion remains that formula is a nutritionally complete alternative.


christine


~christine~

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 04-07-2003 - 11:07am
yeah but so am i (yours)! ;-)
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 04-07-2003 - 11:07am
i know...lol. ;-)
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 04-07-2003 - 11:06am
" <<>>

How do you know they're ok?? Can you specifically pinpoint what causes illness in adults?? Pinpoint?? Nope."

no, i don't know. that's my whole point. just as we don't *know* formula-fed kids are "ok".

"<<>>

Ok...I think you're sensationalizing here. Truly. Look at our past....say from a hundred years ago to now. We have come LEAPS and BOUNDS!! We are only improving ourselves and our lives. We may hit some road bumps, but our gradually and steady rise in life expectancy and quality says alot. I guess anything is possible......but history tells us that this infact won't happen."

i agree we're living longer. but i don't necessarily equate that with better life. look how many people have: diabetes, cancer, chronic fatigue syndrome, autism, asthma, arthritis (the llist goes on...) now! i don't think our lives are necessarily getting any better. i don't blame all this on formula obviously...there are tonnes of pollutants in our lives now, from pesticides to thimerisol to car exhaust...but every little thing does its bit imho.

"<<>>

Actually, they are improving it. It's pretty obvious."

that is an opinion i don't share. ;-)

"<<>>

I don't get this. You would rather have tainted bm containing toxins, poisons, and known carcinogens over formula?? "

yes! we don't know the results (long term) of either, really, but i do believe the antibodies etc. are THAT important to a human.

"The effects of anti-bodies wears off with age...and with weening."

i don't think they wear off. i think their way of helping changes though.

" What happens to those built-up toxins in the baby's system??"

what happens to toxins in anyone's system? they are deposited in fat cells. don't kid yourself that there are no toxins in cow milk though (& therefore in formula)...

"<<>>

We do know......and as of today I know of no killer disease out there that is directly related to formula use."

hmm...that is again your opinion. my opinion is that formula *is* directly related to cancers (childhood, breast, etc.). round & round again, but that is what i believe.

" People are living longer these days. Isn't average life expectancy in the 80's now?? Didn't scientists just up it?? "

surely. but there are lots of factors at work here...

fio nak

Avatar for cl_sunny_side_up
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Mon, 04-07-2003 - 11:05am
I know....I know.....

But, I am bound and determined to change your mind;)


christine


~christine~

Avatar for cl_sunny_side_up
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Mon, 04-07-2003 - 11:03am
I was having fun with you my dear. When I read that particular part of your post I was lauging my butt off!!

LOL.....


christine


~christine~

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 04-07-2003 - 10:51am
yes one could. i never said smoker's bm was as good as non-smoker's bm. i just don't believe it's as bad as formula either.

i do see it as dangerous. less dangerous than formula tho.

fio nak

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 04-07-2003 - 10:49am
LOL...2 mos *average* remember? that takes into account all the v. much truncated lives & the ones that aren't by more than a few nanoseconds. ;-)

LOLOLOLOL...

ROTFLOL...yeah i'm with you on the dipes tho. ;-)

Avatar for cl_sunny_side_up
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Mon, 04-07-2003 - 10:38am
<<>>

How do you know they're ok?? Can you specifically pinpoint what causes illness in adults?? Pinpoint?? Nope.


<<>>

Ok...I think you're sensationalizing here. Truly. Look at our past....say from a hundred years ago to now. We have come LEAPS and BOUNDS!! We are only improving ourselves and our lives. We may hit some road bumps, but our gradually and steady rise in life expectancy and quality says alot. I guess anything is possible......but history tells us that this infact won't happen.


<<>>

Actually, they are improving it. It's pretty obvious.


<<>>

I don't get this. You would rather have tainted bm containing toxins, poisons, and known carcinogens over formula?? The effects of anti-bodies wears off with age...and with weening. What happens to those built-up toxins in the baby's system??


<<>>

We do know......and as of today I know of no killer disease out there that is directly related to formula use. People are living longer these days. Isn't average life expectancy in the 80's now?? Didn't scientists just up it??


christine






~christine~

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