For older kids' moms who breastfed....

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-01-2002
For older kids' moms who breastfed....
73
Sat, 02-02-2013 - 8:49pm

How do you know now (if you're finished breastfeeding your children) that it made a difference?  Formula feeding is much easier, make a bottle, be on-the-go without stopping while out and about, maybe an infant who slept longer.  Would your older children (no longer breastfed) be different if you had formula fed? 

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iVillage Member
Registered: 07-11-2006
Tue, 02-12-2013 - 12:09am

thardy2001 wrote:
<p> I think women should have the decorum and discretion to BF out of my sight.</p>

I think women have the right to breastfeed anywhere they have a right to be. I think that women need to NIP in a way that works for them. I  do not think that they should have to feed their baby in a way that others think they should.

This works in reverse to. While I think the WHO Code and the Baby Friendly Hospital Initiative which promote breastfeeding are good ideas, regardless of how important breastfeeding is healthwise, moms still have the right to feed their babies formula. There is no need to feel as if they have to appease others.

When it comes to NIP, I think it makes sense for anyone who is uncomfortable with a mom feeding her child to either 1) look away or 2) put a blanket over their head.

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-20-2008
Tue, 02-12-2013 - 6:50pm

Again, it's not about "drawing too much attention" in public.  It's not about tolerance. 

The fact is that as more people become accustomed to eyeing moms nurse in public, they will gradually not notice them as much or not care as much when they do. Imagine if you where in the Southern U.S. and you saw an interracial couple, what sort of reaction do you think you would see today. Probably a much more tolerant one then you would have seen 1960's or earlier where such a sight could have gotten the couple lynched or at least arrested. The same will likely hold true for nursing in public. In a few decades, few people will react to seeing a mom nurse in public. Where I live that already holds true as I have never heard of any incidents over NIP around here as long I can recall.

And there is no such thing as an "anti-BF hang up." 

What I mean by nti-BF hangup is basically a hangup abot breastfeeding that leads one to be against breastfeeding in general. So basically, it starts with one having a hang-up about breastfeeding based on having an inability to see breasts as anything other then sexual. This is turn leads can lead to being against breastfeeding in general and against NIP in particular. Often there will be reasons for opposing BF in general beyond just the sexual aspect of breasts but it is a key aspect for many mom as to why they are against BF (for those against it in general rather then just for themselves).

It's about making others uncomfortable or choose to watch where their eyes are looking.  I BF for  years and to this day, I think women should have the decorum and discretion to BF out of my sight.

Let's go back to my example of the reaction seeing an interracial couple would have in the South today vs. in the 1960's. In the 1960's  it likely made many Southerners very uncomfortable seeing a man and a women of different races being romantic with each other. But due to changes in the law and several Supreme Court rulings, they where to at least tolerate it even if they disagreed with it. As it became more common in the South, people grew used to seeing interatcial couples and now, outside the few die-hard racists that still exist, most people are not disturb by the sight anymore, even those still uncomfortable with the idea personally. The same will be true of NIP, where even people uncomfortable with the idea of breastfeeding will at least become OK enough with seeing another mom do it in public that it will no longer be the issue it is in many parts of the U.S. Just because your uncomfortable with seeing does not mean that your feelings are of such a nature that the rest of society should bend to them. Your entitled to your feelings on seeing other moms NIP around you but without a better argument against NIP then I don't see any reason moms should cater to your hang-up if it makes their life very inconvenient. What if the issue was some religious ultra-conservative food your typical still of dress to revealing for his taste and demanded that all women in public dress by his standards of modesty, would you change your style of dress to  his standard of modesty just so he and other like him didn't have to to feel uncomfortable around you in public? I doubt it. Lot's of people have unreasonable demands of others round them that we all ignore because we all agree they are unfair demands. You just happen to agree with the anti-NIP view so you don't see the extra work required to avoid NIP all together as unreasonable. But you may just find your self a decade or two from now in a society where NIP is the norm and no one bats and eye and you way ask yourself "Why was I see hung up about seeing other moms nursing in public way back then?". 
There's no reliable, quantifiable support for BFing being better than FFing

As can be seen in my children, years later.  As can be seen from reading these debates and experiential data.  You twice offered just one source for this incredibly important accusation, the BF is better.  And that link is empty.

I went back and checked the original link I posted and it seem the report in question has since been archived but I assure you it was a valid link when I posted in. Here is an updated link from the National Institutes of Health (NIH) that contains the same info: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17764214
Just so you know. The above link is to a meta-study. If you don't know, a meta-study is a special kind of study that looks at a bunch of other studies on a topic (in this case breastfeeding vs formula-feeding) and draws conclusions based on them. The way they work is they take only the sounds reliable studies and draw conclusions based on them which can either be that it does reduce the risks of x disease/health problem, it does not, or the evidence for or against is still to weak or contradictory to draw conclusions either way. If you want to see the studies the above meta-study is based on then read through the meta study. But this meta study did indeed conclude that all the reliable studies out there do indeed support the conclusions that BF is better health-wise then formula-feeding.


Again, we don't need Nursing-In-Public legislation.  We already have the right to do that. 


Again, I tthink your missing the point of the nursing-in-public laws. Breastfeeding specifically has never been illegal. In some states, it was possible for a mom to be arrested for indecency for briefly flashing her breast in public while trying to get the baby latched . So in some cases one of the purposes of these NIP laws is to clarify that any incidental breast flash as a part of breastfeeding in pubic is not indecent exposure. But the bigger purpose of the laws is the prevent harassment of breastfeeding moms and discrimination against such moms by places of business. While it was never illegal to breast-feeding in public before, there was nothing stopping  person from harassing a mom nursing in public before. There was also nothing preventing a mom from being objected from public shops or otter places for nursing in public where a bottle-feeding mom would not have been. Thus the laws also bare shopkeepers and such from discriminating against BF moms.

But we cannot legislate away people's discomfort with the mom BF'ing in public.  We can't get rid of the "ick" factor.  Especially since the norm is Formula Feeding. 

No, not at first but that is not the point. By preventing people from harassing or discriminating against moms who NIP, we will see more more moms do it in public. As a result, it will become more commonplace which in turn will result in fewer people being disturb at the sight of it in public. People can become more comfortable with it as they see it more and more. Look at modern styles of clothing that reveal a lot more then what was acceptable say a century ago. A victorian mom would have had a fit and many modern dress styles but we generally don't because we have grown used to it. Sure, not everyone agrees with all forms of modern dress but generally they at least tolerate it when in public.  Creating an environment where more moms can feel comfortable nursing in public is just one factor that will help get rid of the ice factor. The other is improving BF rates and improving support for BF such that it becomes the norm rather then formula. In parts of the country where it already is the norm, sun as where I live, you don't see many people being bothered by the sight of NIP or they keep it to themselves if they do.

And certainly of the moms who do BF, few BF in public most of the time.

Maybe where you live there are many moms who BF but don't BF in public. But where I live, I'm pretty sure that most who BF do indeed BF in public at least some of the time. The reality is tough that few moms BF that long in the U.S. so few have much time to actually NIP which is why you may see so few in your area. There are however many advantages for BF'ing moms to be able to freely NIP so I think we should indeed create a more NIP-friendly environment across the U.S. We don't need everyone to be A-OK with NIP just willing to not harass or discriminate against nursing moms. Even if many nursing moms still choose not to NIP due to discomfort, at least those that are OK with will have a more hospitable environment to NIP under which will at least benefit them and their babies.

Ear infections are not more common in FFed babies

Every baby has the same risk of getting ear infections.  And they are always treated by a medical dr. the same way initially ~ with antibiotics.  So the whole "antibiotics in BM" argument falls flat.  I think FF moms and BF moms alike understand arguments about the shape of baby's ear and how to hold the baby properly to avoid pooling.

Huh?! Who said anything about antibiotics in breastmilk? Breastmilk does have antiBODIES in in which is different the antiBIOTICS. so maybe you confused the two. These antibodies, along with other ingredients in breastmilk, do indeed help prevent ear infections. Another factor in why FF babies get more ear infection appears to have something to do with bottle-feeding and difference in how the milk enters the babies body with bottle-feeding vs breast-feeding. Thus is both the substance being fed (breastmilk vs formula) and the method of feeding (breast vs bottle) that plays a role.  No one is saying that formula/bottle-fed babies do not get ear infections as they do indeed but that simply that breastfed babies get them less. There are a number of sound studies that support he claim that FF babies have more ear infections in general (see the link posted about for the names of studies in question).

Agains, your only support for BF babies not getting more ear infections than FF babies now and from my memory is an empty link.

I gone back and posted in up-to-date link for you above meta-study since the old link seems to habe since been archived. But the new link will point you to a meta-study that list many different studies that support my claims if you want to research it in more depth.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 05-20-2008
Tue, 02-12-2013 - 7:56pm

When it comes to NIP, I think it makes sense for anyone who is uncomfortable with a mom feeding her child to either 1) look away or 2) put a blanket over their head.

I agree completely. I've been thinking about all the things someone somewhere migh find uncomfortable seeing in public so I made a list of many types of people some peopke object to seeing in public:

      1.    Bottle-feeding in pubic or at all (die-hard breastfeeding advocates appose seeing this)
    2.    interracial couples (there are still racists out there that object to this)
    3.    gay couples (apposed by homophobic/anti-homosexuality types)
    4.    fat/obese people (many people find the sight gross/disturbing/etc. and wish they didn't have to see it.)
    5.    Physically or mentally handicapped people or People with severe burns or deformities as the result of an accident or physical assault. (some people find them to be disturbing or uncomfortable to be around.)
    6.    Women who walk around with their hear uncovered and in some even their face (conservative muslims appose this with the most conservative believing in veils or burqas/burkas).
    7.    People with unusual piercings or tattoos (more conservative or square types oppose these counterculture types)
    8.    Christians with conservative dress/appearance including certain fundamentalists/evangelicals, normans, Amish, etc. (apposed by some liberal christian and atheist/agnostics.)
    9.    Anyone wearing a shirts baring slogans they disagree with such liberal, conservative, communist, fascists, feminists, and religious slogans.
    10.    Guys wearing turbans or other distantly non-Christian or non-Western garb.
    11.    Anyone with a metal illness even if not dangerous (many people wrongly assume all manually ill people are dangerous).
    12.    Women wearing skimpy outfits that are still within the boundaries of the decency laws.

Fewer people would seriously advocate that the above types of people be barred appearing in pubic compared with NIP. I'm pretty sure that at everyone on this board at this moment (active or lurking) would agree that at it would be wrong to bar at least some (if not all) of the above from being seen in public. If I advoated that people be barred from bottle-feeding/formula-feeding a baby in public, most people would throw a stink and rightfully so. I think people need to get over the fact that BF'ing involves the breast and think of as just another way to feed a baby. I think most people can come up with something they don't find objectionable to see in public that past generations did (such as bare legs which Victorians objected too). For those apposed to NIP, think of how the acceptance of bare legs in society as not destroyed or damaged it. Now try and imagine NIP being normal and common where you live and try and think of what the real damage/harm thay would cause? Can you come up with anything conrete? The fact is that your uncomfortableness with seeing NIP is more about it not being common and the fact you grew up viewing breasts as private parts. I think if you saw it all the time you would realizes this uncomfortableness is not based on any real evidence of harm from the sight.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 09-01-2002
Tue, 02-12-2013 - 9:36pm

Nisuppulla: <<When it comes to NIP, I think it makes sense for anyone who is uncomfortable with a mom feeding her child to either 1) look away or 2) put a blanket over their head.>>

Oh well.  There are few moms who breastfeed for any significant amount of time anymore.  And even fewer moms who breastfeed in public in the US and Canada.  So, I'm good.  I'm a woman, I breastfed my children for a total of 3 years and I still don't want to see another mother breastfeeding in public. You do the math ~ *if* a mother breastfeeds in public, she won't have support of most of the people there anyway.   The numbers in the US and Canada speak volumes, and few mothers breastfeed for any significant length of time. 

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-01-2002
Tue, 02-12-2013 - 10:36pm

Charleen: <<The same will likely hold true for nursing in public. In a few decades, few people will react to seeing a mom nurse in public. Where I live that already holds true as I have never heard of any incidents over NIP around here as long I can recall.>>

What kind of incidents were you expecting? 

How many decades are you planning to wait?  Because I breastfeed mine 10 years ago and nothing's changed among the public at large.  You agree as you're talking about waiting and waiting.  That's what I heard 10 years ago.   

Charleen: <<What I mean by nti-BF hangup is basically a hangup abot breastfeeding that leads one to be against breastfeeding in general. So basically, it starts with one having a hang-up about breastfeeding based on having an inability to see breasts as anything other then sexual.>>

Breastfeeding in public necessarily puts up a barrier between the speaker/listener and the BFing mother.  It's tiresome waiting for a half-second for the mom to listen/respond, so I don't.  I know, I tried it.  I breastfed in my home or the homes of other breastfeeding moms around me ~ there's too little conversation, the focus is on the breastfeeding relationship.  Not so with formula.  Maybe I'll talk to the mom later, but not when she's N.I.P. 

More evidence of this is in the work environment.  Mom cannot converse with co-workers, boss, cannot work, type, talk intelligently on phone, etc. while breastfeeding.  She needs privacy, another room ~ that's the legislation you're talking about.  The Ick factor is alive and well in the workplace, and in the stores, playground, banks, etc.

The interracial couple comparison is wholly inapposite.  Civil Rights laws were needed and passed *over 2 centuries* because the couple was in danger of their very lives.  The same cannot be said for breasfeeding mothers.

<<Your entitled to your feelings on seeing other moms NIP around you>>  I know.  And I'm not in the minority by any means.  There are many moms who pump for no other reason than to keep a supply on hand in case they go out and about, in the car while baby is hungry, at the crowded playground chasing one or more of their other children, for no other reason than respecting the fact that others have the Ick factor too and it's perfectly acceptable.

**If you can't get through to me almost 10 years after I breastfed my own 3 guys, you're not going to get thru to anyone!**

Regardless, few moms breastfeed anymore for any great deal of time.  And even fewer N.I.P.

<<The meta-study>>   I read it.  Thank you.  I don't need to tell you, there's simply no way of knowing that Johnny who was breastfed for a full year would not have enjoyed the excellent health (or endured less ailments) if he had been formula fed.  There are no controls.  Each of my 3 breastfed children have had their health concerns like all other children.

The meta-study talks about "diseases."  Not increased ear infections.  Not heightened IQ.  Not cleaner homes and more vegetables on hand.

We eat only organic meats and vegetables, drink organic milk, juices, etc, etc.  I breastfed.  But I feel very comfortable saying my breastfeeding compatriots are simply NOT serving organic fare to their toddlers up through adulthood.  There's simply no accounting for women so determined to breastfeed because breast is best  who go on to serve their kids McDonalds.  If they're serious about nutrition, then continue "to do the norm" because **organic is the norm.**  Mystery chemicals, preservatives and high fructose corn syrup are not the norm.  How can any breastfeeding mom allege that 6 months or 2 years was enough to increase IQ, prevent leukemia (that one is insane!), prevent the flu, gastrointestinal problems when they don't continue in later years with organic?  They simply can't.

Community Leader
Registered: 10-01-2010
Tue, 02-12-2013 - 11:38pm

I am confused by this statement??

<<Mom cannot converse with co-workers, boss, cannot work, type, talk intelligently on phone, etc. while breastfeeding.>>

Are you really saying that mom cannot do these things while she is breastfeeding? Or did I misunderstand?

I sat in board meetings and contributed while breastfeeding my middle son. I cooked meals, did laundry, washed dishes and breastfed - all at the same time.

I read bedtime stories, and put my older son to bed, while breastfeeding. I travelled o nthe bus, taking my older son on outings and chatting with him, while breastfeeding my younger son.

I ran a successful home business while I was breastfeeding my youngest, taking orders over the phone, typing up copy for my catalogue, laying type in the days before computers, collated catalogues, photocopying paperwork, filling orders, worked my table at tradeshows - and even giving an 1/2 long interview on the phone, while breastfeeding my youngest son.

I bottlefed my grandson - now that I need both hands for and most of my attention!

I don't think I am superwoman - and most women are quite capable of multi-tasking...

Community Leader
Registered: 10-01-2010
Tue, 02-12-2013 - 11:45pm

<<There are so few moms who breastfeed for any significant amount of time anymore. >>

"The percentage of women who initiated breastfeeding rose from 81.5% in 2001 to 87.0% in 2005, and has held steady since then... in terms of those who continued to breastfeed, 53.9% who initiated breastfeeding continued for six months or longer; 15.9% breastfed for more than a year.

The proportion of mothers who began to breastfeed was above the national average in Alberta (92.4%), British Columbia (97.3%), and Yukon, where all the women who were interviewed in 2009 had begun to breastfeed. The proportion of women who began to breastfeed was below the national average in Newfoundland and Labrador (61.1%), Nova Scotia (76.7%) and Quebec (81.8%).

In 2009, 24.4% of women who gave birth in the past five years gave their babies breast milk exclusively—no water, other liquids or solid food—for six months or longer. This percentage is up from 21.0% in 2007 (Chart 2)."

Source: www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-625-x/2010002/article/11269-eng.htm

Breastfeeding rates continue to rise, with increases of about 2 percentage points in breastfeeding initiation, and breastfeeding at 6 and 12 months. Breastfeeding initiation increased from 74.6% in 2008 to 76.9% in 2009 births. This improvement in initiation represents the largest annual increase over the previous decade. Breastfeeding at 6 months increased from 44.3% to 47.2%; breastfeeding at 12 months increased from 23.8% to 25.5%.

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/breastfeeding/data/reportcard.htm

Community Leader
Registered: 10-01-2010
Tue, 02-12-2013 - 11:52pm

<<That's an answer ~ you BF without anyone even knowing you were BF so I should have lived that same situation? >>

I am not sure if you were directing this part to me? I couldn't find my original quote in this thread - but I thought I did say that I did not expect that others to feel the same as I did or have the same experience - or at least I thought I did.

If I didn't then I apologize. I was simply saying that I breastfed in a time when almost no one else did - I did it discretely and I guess I was very fortunate to never have a problem. I am actually a bit horrifed that despite the fact that breastfeeding has become much more common today, nursing in public has gotten much more controversial. It doesn't make logical sense in my head.

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-01-2002
Wed, 02-13-2013 - 6:31pm

Witch Power said: <<I ran a successful home business while I was breastfeeding my youngest, taking orders over the phone, typing up copy for my catalogue, laying type in the days before computers, collated catalogues, photocopying paperwork, filling orders, worked my table at tradeshows - and even giving an 1/2 long interview on the phone, while breastfeeding my youngest son.>>

It sounds like you were at home and not N.I.P.  This tangent has been about N.I.P. 

Most women quit breastfeeding when they return to work in a typical office.  I've known good employers who gave full accomodations to breastfeeding moms, such as private nursing rooms, personal refrigerators, etc.  And still, higher paying full-time jobs with decent salaries, benefits, retirement, health insurance, paid days off are not compatible with N.I.P.

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-01-2002
Wed, 02-13-2013 - 6:45pm

sorry, double post

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