Posting photos of nursing babies online

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-08-2001
Posting photos of nursing babies online
1029
Wed, 09-05-2007 - 10:52am

On another board, a poster has a long siggy that includes a slideshow of nursing babies from her playgroup. Another poster took offense at it and there has been quite the debate over the appropriateness of the siggy. I posted a message inviting people here to discuss that issue, and I hope that one of the posters from that particular playgroup comes here, at least so we can see what the siggy looks like. I'm having a hard time forming coherent thoughts today, LOL! So don't worry if I don't come back to debate the issue with you, I'm trying to get out of the office so I can go home & sleep.


As "Linda Richmond" (aka Mike Myers) from SNL would say, "talk amongst yourselves."

Mary


Mom to Kevin 11/04/2003


CL, Breast vs. Bottle Debate

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iVillage Member
Registered: 09-22-2004
Mon, 09-10-2007 - 11:56pm

Birth puts a child at risk for health issues. There are so many things that put us at risk for health issues. What about the risks of a negative home environment (drugs, premarital sex, etc). Yes, if an informed mom chooses to formula feed because she will be a happier mother to her child for it, then I am all for it. I will do what I need to provide the best home I can for my children, even if that means that I do something that is second best for my child. Sometimes second best is the best solution in an individual situation.

ok..a hypothetical but very real situation. A family with two kids, mom has supply issues is very emotional about this problem. While the mom is trying to provide milk for the baby, the older child is getting less attention from an already frustrated mom. Time spent weighing at the doctors, lc visits to deal with supply issues, and time spent pumping to determine the supply plus the time spent actually feeding the baby, where is the time for the older child? While the breast milk is benefiting the baby, the older child is being neglected and mom is unhappy and feeling bad about herself not being able to supply milk for the younger one. Does the benefit of the breast milk benefit this family as a whole?

Kerri

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-04-2004
Tue, 09-11-2007 - 12:15am

But you said the contentedness of the parents "trumped" the health benefits of BF, and that simply isn't true. I think it's a poor comparison to make when you say that "birth puts a child at risk". We have to assume that if you're making a feeding choice, your child has survived the process of childbirth. Now what? Do we use formula, or do we BF? Even the most informed decision-making process does NOT negate the fact that formula contains potentially-harmful substances, without containing all the good ones breastmilk contains either. It puts children at higher risk when they are NOT BF, period.

As for the hypothetical family you described, I have to wonder how so many families DO manage to have successful BF experiences with ALL their children, not just the eldest. There are women on this very board who have 5 or more children, all BF. There are lots of ways to make BF work in a family of more than one child. The parents have to decide what they are willing to change to make it work better, whether that is through different sleeping arrangements, learning to wear the baby, pumping for expressed milk, tandem nursing, etc. I think there are a lot of obstacles people put in front of their own success as parents because they want to do things a certain way, even if they aren't working very well.

If mom and dad are not willing to try a lot of different things in order to make BF work, then I have to wonder how committed to it they were in the first place. There is no reason for an older child to be "neglected" because of the BF relationship between mom and younger sibling; an older child can hang out right next to them while they nurse, have stories read, watch a show together, help with simple tasks like fetching a burp cloth, etc. I really believe this situation can be gotten through without switching to formula, and I have seen it played out in many families before. When I have a future child, I expect to face the issue myself.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 09-22-2004
Tue, 09-11-2007 - 12:29am

I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on my end of this one. It could possibly be that I don't bf, therefore I don't have as much to go on as a mother that does. In my frame of reference (which consists solely of my life and experiences), I will never be able to understand how a feeding choice can trump the happiness of the entire family. I guess it is just the emphasis on breast milk is different for you and you would probably do everything in your powers to make it work for your family. Whereas for me I do not hold it as high of a priority (since I can not and do not bf), so I could never truly understand the sacrifices that you or any other bfing mommy would make not only to bf their child, but to ensure the happiness of their family. So I guess your words really did make me understand...OK pat yourself on the back!!! Here is what I am walking away with...If bfing is a high priority to a mom she would do anything at all possible to provide milk for her child while still providing a happy, healthy environment for herself, where another mom, without such a commitment may turn to formula when times get tough....so debating with you is kind of difficult because of your absolute commitment level, which I really admire, there really aren't many "ifs" with you.

Kerri

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-21-2006
Tue, 09-11-2007 - 12:32am

Why would this hypothetical situation be any different than when you have another situation where one child in the family *needs* more attention than the other for a short amount of time?


For example, several years ago, my oldest got into big trouble and ended up in a juvenile correctional facility. During that time, I was less available for the other kids due to court dates, appointments with shrinks, visits with my son, that sort of stuff. I certainly didn't quit parenting the other kids, but yes, they got less time with me. That's the way it works in families I know...not everyone gets equal time ALL the time. There are times when one person's issues may take "center stage" and everyone has to deal with it.


I have had supply issues and I spent a lot of extra time pumping. Sure, I didn't have to visit an LC, but I did spend extra time, I guess, researching ways to increase my supply and I had numerous trips out to the store to buy fenugreek/blessed thistle/oatmeal/almonds, etc. I have struggled with this for *months* and yet, I still manage to work a full-time job and deal with the other kids and my SO and my life in general.


Sometimes a person has to make a decision about how much breastfeeding is worth to

 

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iVillage Member
Registered: 12-14-2000
Tue, 09-11-2007 - 12:44am

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I have to agree here. I'm one of those moms of many that you mentioned, and I breastfed all of my kids. The hardest time for me was when the twins were newborns and I was nursing the two of them exclusively, and also nursing their older brother (18 mos.) once/day. It was a crazy busy time. It was when I went from occasionally plopping a baby into a chest carrier to take a walk to pretty much continuously wearing two babies (one in a chest carrier and one in a sling,) while chasing a toddler and trying to keep the two big sisters (aged 7 and 4) bathed, at school and dance class on time, and in some semblance of a normal life. At the time, money was tight, and DH took on a second job, so I was really alone with all of this. I made it work. I suppose I could've stopped nursing and may even have qualified for WIC (as long as it's only income based and not assets based.) I simply had enough experience by then to know that bottlefeeding isn't easier than nursing. I had to bottlefeed my first from 5mos on and I *hated* the extra work of washing, sterilizing, mixing, pouring, heating, etc, etc, etc. I also loved nursing, so it was worth it for me. The only "added" difficulty was Jack's latch was painful at first (not because we were doing anything wrong, but because he has a very high, narrow pallet...no real fix for it, you just have to power through. Eventually, the nipple will toughen as needed.) If they'd come second (and third) instead of fourth (and fifth,) I may very well have switched. It was a difficult time, and if I believed that formula feeding would've made my life somehow easier, I would've switched, but knowing how much I disliked it, and how formula really isn't an equal or even close alternative I stuck to it. I'm glad that I knew better.

 

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iVillage Member
Registered: 07-11-2006
Tue, 09-11-2007 - 6:32am

This topic will of course come up again given the frequent use of the terms outside this board. For that reason, I recognize that it is an important discussion. Your intentions were pretty clear, I was just worried about where it was going to end up.

Onward to the 1000th post!

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-11-2006
Tue, 09-11-2007 - 6:46am

>>I think it is accurate to say the formula feeding harms babies...It would also be accurate to say that breastfeeding harms babies.

You see there is not a qualifier or limit to either statement, which makes it rather inflammatory. <<

Exactly!

Attaching the qualifier is really important, especially on a debate board!

Breastfeeding harms babies...when the baby has galactocemia.

Breastfeeding is risky...when the mom is taking chemotherapy meds.

Exclusive breastfeeding is risky...when the moms supply is impaired by a prior breast reduction surgery.

And the HIV/AIDS is an even better example to emphasize "risk " rather than "harm".

In the US, the currently accepted recommendation for an HIV+ mom is exclusive formula.
In Africa, the currently accepted recommendation is exclusive breastfeeding - because of other factors such as the water supply.

The science on HIV/AIDS and breastfeeding is quite sparse and generally inconclusive. The question that remains is, does exclusive breastfeeding increase risk of passing on the virus? It seems like common sense, but that it would seem like common sense that snake bite venom would pass into breastmilk, but it doesn't.

I think the qualifiers would contribute to a lessening of the "poison" reference, too.

Avatar for mrsmichael6300
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Tue, 09-11-2007 - 8:26am

>>No she kept breastfeeding and still hates her daughter (she is not a good mom), but if there wasn't the resentment from having to breastfeed there maybe the relationship could have been better, we will never know. I just think that it is better to try an alternative if it ultimately makes you a better parent for it (as an individual not speaking as a generalization). That works for many things maybe parents are so sick of co-sleeping that their marriage is falling apart...wouldn't CIO be a better solution than having a split home? (and yes this does happen...sad but it does). I don't believe in CIO but if it helps the parents be better parents in that circumstance than I am for it. That is the point that I am driving at with bfing too. If not bfing can (I know that this is an exception and not the rule) bring about a better parent/child relationship than wouldn't that trump the health benefits?<<

Do you not think that a mother who resents her child because of breastfeeding, or a couple about to separate over co-sleeping or not using CIO doesn't maybe have deeper issues to begin with that go far beyond the parenting decision? That bf'ing/co-sleeping/CIO is merely a scapegoat? Is this same mother resentful of the diapers she must change? How about the baths she must give? What about playing endless games of peek-a-boo with teh child? Perhaps if bf'ing were seen as a non-negotiable aspect of parenting in our culture (as it is in most other cultures around the globe), mothers wouldn't blame *it* for their unhappiness (which, BTW, is most likely post partum depression). And there's no way I'll buy that co-sleeping ruins marriages. Trust me when I say that the bed is NOT the only place for baby dancing (in fact, it's way more fun to figure out all the OTHER places in which the act may be performed :P ).

Switching to formula, independent sleeping, or employing CIO aren't going to help the deeper psychological or relational issues in your examples. They might be quick fixes...but the issues are *still* there, waiting to pop back up to the surface. And formula, indepdent sleeping (i.e. child in his/her own room before age of 4 months), and CIO (I'm not talking occasional, here, either, I mean that the baby is left from an early time to cry in an effort to not spoil him or her, especially at bed time) are done at hte detriment of the *child.*

Avatar for mrsmichael6300
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Tue, 09-11-2007 - 8:31am

>>You see there is not a qualifier or limit to either statement, which makes it rather inflammatory. It is also easy to take a statement out of context, which has been done numerous times in this debate (or whatever it has become). Now let me qualify my statement...If women with HIV choose to breastfeed their otherwise hiv- baby then it would harm the baby, therefore breastfeeding harms babies. See the statement is accurate (could also substitute with drugs and large amounts of alcohol), however it is a blanket statement that on its own makes a horrible quote. However, the statement that formula feeding harms babies is widely accepted on this board without a qualifier or limit. I believe the statement itself is inflammatory as there is no way to tell if a child will be harmed by consuming formula and is by and large the exception and not the rule. No, I do not feel like looking up the statistics, but formula, while not the best option, is also not the equivalent of rat poison (for lack of a better poison). <<

No, the statement that formula harms babies is very accurate. It harms *every* baby who receives it; without breastmilk the child's gut will not properly form, and the GI tract is the crux of the immune system. Formula alters the gut flora permanently, as well (this is lifelong). The GI tract is a gateway to health (or illness, whichever way you'd like to look at it), so it is my opinion that every child fed formula has experienced harm.

Formula does indeed carry risks.

BTW: in your HIV example, that's not true. The concensus for the moment is that HIV+ mothers in 3rd world countries should *bf*, and that mothers in developed countries should use donor milk or formula. However, we are discovering that freezing breastmilk kills hte HIV virus, so many HIV+ North American mothers may be going the pump and freeze route here soon.

Avatar for mrsmichael6300
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Tue, 09-11-2007 - 8:55am

>>If mom and dad are not willing to try a lot of different things in order to make BF work, then I have to wonder how committed to it they were in the first place. There is no reason for an older child to be "neglected" because of the BF relationship between mom and younger sibling; an older child can hang out right next to them while they nurse, have stories read, watch a show together, help with simple tasks like fetching a burp cloth, etc. I really believe this situation can be gotten through without switching to formula, and I have seen it played out in many families before. When I have a future child, I expect to face the issue myself.<<

I have never understood this argument (ff'ing b/c bf'ing takes time away from older children). It's illogical. Regardless of *how*, the new baby must be fed! So is dad doing all of the new baby's feedings so mom can attend to the older child? That would seem like mom's then not bonding/spending time with the new baby. Are mom and dad equally sharing the feeding responsibilities? Seems sort of impossible...somebody has to be working to earn the money ;). Are the older siblings feeding the new baby? I swear to absolute goodness, on everything that is holy, that you *can* nurse a baby and play with/talk to/help out/do things for older children at the *exact* same time! (conversely, it's hard to do this while feeding a bottle b/c you don't have a free hand) And I swear that you, the mother, will not have more time simply b/c you ff...bdtd. A newborn is a newborn, and a newborn eats every 1-3 hours around teh clock for weeks, whether you are breastfeeding or giving formula. It really does not make a difference. You, the parent, are going to have to figure out how to integrate the new baby with the older children no matter what feeding decision you have made; there is going to be adjustment and you are goign to have to divide your attention between two children (or among three/four/whatever). This is just another case of bf'ing being blamed for a normal, everyday parenting problem.

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