We know better

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-01-2002
We know better
64
Sat, 03-09-2013 - 10:04am

Yet another mother who tried desperately to breastfeed, had troubles and eventually quit.  Twice ~ with her first child and again with her second child.  Is anyone in a position to say yet again this is another mom who didn't try hard enough, and we know better?

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/the-purple-fig/women-struggling-to-breastfeed_b_2820088.html ("Breastfeeding Sucks")

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iVillage Member
Registered: 07-11-2006
Tue, 03-12-2013 - 3:44pm

>>The only thing I inferred was that there was a "third party" involved who allows mothers to leave the hospital only if they successfully nurse or have a reason why they can't successfully nurse.  Do you think there is no third party involved?  If not, who's allowing or not allowing people to leave depending on whether they've successfully nursed?<<

It sounds to me that you are committed to your belief in the Big Meannie who goes from mom to mom judging whether she has tried hard enough. I don't believe the Big Meannie exists.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-16-2010
Tue, 03-12-2013 - 2:52pm

Nisupulla wrote: 

Maybe MissTrygg will chime in, but you clearly read what she wrote differently than I did.

To paraphrase, I read that she lives in a country where you have to be successfully feeding the baby before you leave the hospital. If you are breastfeeding, you have the support you need. When there are breastfeeding challenges the first option is not to try formula, that is the last option. If you are formula feeding, it is not presented as an equivalent choice, it is presented as a breastmilk substitute.

Nothing is mentioned about third party judgments, formula needing to be hidden, or anything along those lines. You inferred them, maybe she impled them. Either way, they are not written on the page.

I didn't say anything about formula needing to be hidden, and I didn't use the word "judgment," so I have no idea what you're talking about there.

Here are the words that were "written on the page" by Misstrygg: "I live in a country here we arent allowed to leave hospital until we have one successful nursing or found out why we can't."   (emphasis added by me)

The only thing I inferred was that there was a "third party" involved who allows mothers to leave the hospital only if they successfully nurse or have a reason why they can't successfully nurse.  Do you think there is no third party involved?  If not, who's allowing or not allowing people to leave depending on whether they've successfully nursed? 

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-16-2010
Tue, 03-12-2013 - 2:41pm

This article is like so many others I've read over the years. Woman has dreams of nursing contendedly from the time Little Bebe comes out until {whenever, I'll save the XBF for another debate}. Woman actually gives birth, then finds out nursing is not as easy as the Internet said it would be. Woman thinks she's {insert problem here} because Little Bebe is not acting like she thinks a newborn should. Woman has told the LC/Nurse ahead of time that she wanted to BF, and LC/Nurse is doing what she thinks Woman wants her to do. Which is not to give up at the first sign of trouble, because in MOST instances, these issues can be resolved so that mom can get what she wanted for her baby. In this story, the Woman has hired three different LCs.  This tells me she did not want to give up. Her path stayed difficult, unfortunately, and she was at the end of her rope. That is unfortunate.

In walks some woman who says what she wants to hear, which is "It's OK to give up." (in this case, she doesn't even say who this woman is. A nurse? Someone who walked into the wrong room? A formula rep? Who knows? We can only infer based on our own bias.) Woman does, and from then on she feels defensive around the very people who only wanted to help her based on what she told them! I don't see anywhere in this story where she felt like she had to hide to bottle-feed her little bebe. I read it 3 times, and I only see a hyperbolic reference to that unidentified woman who said she would bring a "secret stash" of formula to the Woman. Seriously, if she had just come out and said "I've changed my mind, I would like some formula please," does anyone believe that any hospital employee would have said "No"? Or maybe given her the Pointed Finger of Shame?

Do I think this woman didn't try hard enough? I don't know, because I don't know her personally. I believe her when she implies that she was ready to snap. I know that feeling exactly. My firstborn had an improper latch and it took weeks to correct it. I didn't give up or give in, even though there were plenty of people who told me that it was OK to give him formula. It was OK to give up, formula wasn't poison, it would be fine, I should stop being a martyr...Hey! I could write my own article about how guilty those people made ME feel! /snark

So; my first born not only didn't starve, he's now a 95-lb 3rd grader. After we got the hang of breastfeeding it all worked out just fine. My 2nd baby seemed to have read a manual in utero, because she latched on like it was her job (I guess it WAS her job) and got it right from the get-go. I guess I knew what to expect, so I helped her latch on, making it easier on me. It's not easy with the first, and sometimes the 2nd doesn't turn out the way you may hope. I had my own stubborn attitude and absolute determination that my kids would never have a drop of formula, and that got me through. That's me, though. I tried hard enough for ME. This woman tried hard enough for HER. As Bordwithyou said, it's her baby, her boobs. I'm sure Little Bebe is thriving and healthy and all those happy things.

I dislike when a story about ONE woman's experience becomes "See? You militant boob-mongers are just mean. She had to HIDE to feed her BABY!" @@ Unless there was a note in the comment section, which I make a point not to read in these articles, there was no mention of her having to hide from the hospital employees.

Kevali


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iVillage Member
Registered: 12-16-2004
Tue, 03-12-2013 - 2:31pm

Sweden , a country  with one of the highest rates in breastfeeding in the indsutral countries  ( aparently 95% the first 3 months).  The reason we dont  go for formula or see it as choice is because that is the way we are brought up.  We dont know any better, we dont know we should have a choice instead we do as nature intended nor do we get  flyers with cupon or test portions of  formula and also it is called milk replacement here maybe the word makes us think twice.

Here is an Americans womans view on  us Swedes and breastfeeding.

http://survivinglifeinsweden.blogspot.se/2011/01/breastfeeding-in-sweden.html

 Should say, yes in larger cities people stops  at 6 months but most  keep breastfeeding until they are 8- 12 months. It is due to the paid materinty leave we.  I havent found a lacavist outside our Capitol,  they are more international then the rest of us, most of us dont care about breasfeeding mums in public.

I been breastfeeding my little rugrat for 10 months now, on busses, at resturants, in stores, doesnt matter no one cares because it is normal here.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-11-2006
Tue, 03-12-2013 - 1:19pm

As I said I don't see how she got "support", if she felt like she couldn't feed the baby without hiding the formula. That makes no sense to me.

No - I don't think that "quality lactation care" is defined by whether or not the mom is breastfeeding when she leaves the hospital. I do not know why you inferred that.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-11-2006
Tue, 03-12-2013 - 1:10pm

Maybe MissTrygg will chime in, but you clearly read what she wrote differently than I did.

To paraphrase, I read that she lives in a country where you have to be successfully feeding the baby before you leave the hospital. If you are breastfeeding, you have the support you need. When there are breastfeeding challenges the first option is not to try formula, that is the last option. If you are formula feeding, it is not presented as an equivalent choice, it is presented as a breastmilk substitute.

Nothing is mentioned about third party judgments, formula needing to be hidden, or anything along those lines. You inferred them, maybe she impled them. Either way, they are not written on the page.

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-01-2002
Tue, 03-12-2013 - 11:33am

jessica765 wrote:
<p><em><strong>Jessica wrote</strong>: "I can be happy that I live in a country where I am "allowed" to decide not to use my own breasts to feed my baby without having to demonstrate to some third party why I 'can't.'"</em></p><p><em><strong>Nispulla wrote</strong>: "That seems silly. It implies that there are places where mothers have to justify their decision to use formula to others. Where on earth do such places exist? Who wants such places to exist? Why create the illusion that they do?"</em></p><div><div><div><p>Did you not read the Misstrygg post I was replying to (and quoted)?  Misstrygg's entire post reads:</p><p>"I am utterly happy I live in a country where <strong>we arent allowed to leave hospital until we  have one sucessful nursing or  found out why we cant</strong>.  <strong>Formula isnt a choice here</strong>, it is the last option."  (emphasis added by me)</p><p>So, I guess the answers to your questions are as follows:</p><p><strong>1.  Where on earth do places exist "where mothers have to justify their decision to use formula to others"?</strong></p><p>Apparently, the country wherever Misstrygg lives.  I don't know where that is.</p><p><strong>2.   Who wants such places to exist?</strong></p><p>Misstrygg, and you (you said "ITA" to her post), and probably many other people as well if it's actually the policy in an entire country.</p><p><strong>3.  Why create the illustion that they do?</strong></p><p>You'd have to ask Misstrygg, since she's the one who brought up such a place.</p><p> </p></div></div></div>

Well said.  ITA, Jessica.

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-01-2002
Tue, 03-12-2013 - 11:30am

nisupulla wrote:
<p>&gt;&gt;I can be happy that I live in a country where I am "allowed" to decide not to use my own breasts to feed my baby without having to demonstrate to some third party why I "can't." &lt;&lt;</p><p>That seems silly. It implies that there are places where mothers have to justify their decision to use formula to others. Where on earth do such places exist? Who wants such places to exist? Why create the illusion that they do?</p><p>IMO, it's yet another strawman. "Lactivists think mothers should have to make all kinds of sacrifices in order to breastfeed. If they don't they should have to explain themselve and be made to feel guilty. Therefore Lactivists are bad and should be ignored."</p><p>The reality is that in a Baby Friendly Hospital a mother who asks for formula because she does not want to breastfeed gets formula. Any questioning of that is related to making sure she isn't resorting to formula because her breastfeeding efforts are not working out. In the latter case, more breastfeeding support would be provided. IOW, the questioning is a reflection on the staff and their ability to provide breastfeeding support, not a reflection on the mother and/or her efforts.</p><p>I can certainly see how the questioning could be construed differently. After all, articles like this one abound. Comments about access to formula being threatened abound. Comments about mothers being judged abound. </p><p>Nobody is suggesting that mothers should feel guilty. No one is suggesting not having access to formula. It is about having equal access to quality lactation care. It is a terrible disservice to postpartum mothers to imply otherwise.</p>

But, but, but, the Mom in the article got plenty of support.  So you're saying the only "quality lactation care" is the kind where every Mom leaves the hospital breastfeeding.  In the article, Mom and another "inmate" on the maternity ward got so much instruction about breastfeedint that they hid formula.  They simply wanted to formula feed, not breastfeed.

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-01-2002
Tue, 03-12-2013 - 11:19am

jessica765 wrote:
Despite my anger at the absolutely terrible breastfeeding support provided by my hospital, at least I can be happy that I live in a country where I am "allowed" to decide not to use my own breasts to feed my baby without having to demonstrate to some third party why I "can't."

Sorry about the terrible breastfeeding support.  I had an almost opposite experience.  The nurses encouraged bf'ing, gave help if I needed it.  But their policy was ~ Mom wants to breastfeed, then We wash our hands of her baby and are no longer obligated to help. In other words, if you just came from a c-section or a difficult delivery and told the staff you choose to bfeed over formula feeding, you no longer got a break.  You couldn't relax and recover for a minute. The baby was to room with Mom until Mom was discharged from the hospital.  I couldn't nap if the baby cried; I had to change all diapers; I awoke thru the night.  I thought that was the wrong way to handle *my* recovery from c-sections. 

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-16-2010
Tue, 03-12-2013 - 9:24am

Jessica wrote: "I can be happy that I live in a country where I am "allowed" to decide not to use my own breasts to feed my baby without having to demonstrate to some third party why I 'can't.'"

Nispulla wrote: "That seems silly. It implies that there are places where mothers have to justify their decision to use formula to others. Where on earth do such places exist? Who wants such places to exist? Why create the illusion that they do?"

Did you not read the Misstrygg post I was replying to (and quoted)?  Misstrygg's entire post reads:

"I am utterly happy I live in a country where we arent allowed to leave hospital until we  have one sucessful nursing or  found out why we cant.  Formula isnt a choice here, it is the last option."  (emphasis added by me)

So, I guess the answers to your questions are as follows:

1.  Where on earth do places exist "where mothers have to justify their decision to use formula to others"?

Apparently, the country wherever Misstrygg lives.  I don't know where that is.

2.   Who wants such places to exist?

Misstrygg, and you (you said "ITA" to her post), and probably many other people as well if it's actually the policy in an entire country.

3.  Why create the illustion that they do?

You'd have to ask Misstrygg, since she's the one who brought up such a place.

 

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