You keep asking why...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-13-2008
You keep asking why...
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Tue, 12-16-2008 - 2:48pm

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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2008
Thu, 12-18-2008 - 5:28pm

>>>But these issues would have been few and far between.<<<<

I think the presumption that everyone could and did bf'd (including the non-rich) in history misses the fact that there used to be very high mortality rates among infants.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-XhKfbW8ig8C&pg=PA8lpg=PA8&dq=breastfeeding+rates+1800s&source=web&ots=1SIFdK_I9U&sig=eh_7TYYvBnF3ZNwC3vW6x2E_6Vc&hl=ensa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9ct=result

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"The key to good decision making is not knowledge. It is understanding."
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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Thu, 12-18-2008 - 5:34pm
Ugh, I hate migraines! I was getting them once or twice a week in the 1T. Thankfully I'm now back to getting them once every 1-2 months.




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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Thu, 12-18-2008 - 5:39pm

"Women wouldn't have NOT wanted to breastfeed.

Cathie

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2008
Thu, 12-18-2008 - 5:41pm

>>>>The comparison is not formula to abandonment, it's putting Mom's happiness over child's needs, in both cases.<<<<

I get that, but one is much, much, much more extreme and who's to say the mom in that example would be "happy" committing her teen to an institution? Would it really have made that mom "happy"?

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"The key to good decision making is not knowledge. It is understanding."
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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Thu, 12-18-2008 - 5:43pm

"Some moms don't nurse even without formula, back then and today and not just the wealthy or the hired wet nurses."

Ah, but now you're conflating so many issues. Wanting vs. not wanting to bf; being able vs. not being able to bf; having an alternative vs. not having an alternative; all if these issues, whether modern or historic, deserve to be treated individually and completely before they are homogenized and made static the way you have. Can you not see how your primary argument keeps changing with every post?

You're using medieval Europe and contemporary developing nations as a way to explain the habits, preferences and needs of American women. There are so many things inherently wrong with your assumptions that I could write a doctoral dissertation about them.




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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2007
Thu, 12-18-2008 - 5:59pm

"I think the presumption that everyone could and did bf'd (including the non-rich) in history misses the fact that there used to be very high mortality rates among infants."

The link you posted returned nothing, but I was able to get a few things from googling the title and author:

1. This is not a history of breastfeeding.
2. The author is not a historian.

I couldn't get to the actual text of the book, so you'll have to answer a question for me: is she arguing that high rates of infant mortality are mostly based on women refusing to bf? If she is, what sources does she cite? That argument is really contradictory to the mainstream.

If she's not, and she's just making the same argument you are, then I can effectively counter your argument with the following:

1. Infant mortality was highest at birth because of an inaccurate understanding of medicine. BF is irrelevant in these cases.
2. Some infants starved to death because their mothers died in childbirth, often of puerperal fever. Yes, they were not bf, but that certainly does not support your argument that there were many women who refused to bf. The dead, after all, cannot refuse to do anything.
3. It is difficult to separate disease and malnutrition when studying the history of infant mortality. The majority of the peasant population was malnourished, and that made them more susceptible to disease. That, and records aren't always as comprehensive as you'd think. You might have a record that a baby died, but not what they died of.




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iVillage Member
Registered: 11-10-2005
Thu, 12-18-2008 - 6:05pm

I shake my head when I read about the "lack of desire" to breastfeed as a significant determining factor in the decision.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-14-2007
Thu, 12-18-2008 - 6:08pm

I see we're arguing in circles, lol. The question of 'what would the baby want?' is not intended to be literal. Obviously the baby, not being verbal and not being able to comprehend 'risk', cannot decide. 'What would the baby want?' is asked to take focus off of what mom wants. IMNSHO the person primarily effected by the decision should be given the most 'weight' in the decision. IOW, since the baby is impacted the most, then what is healthiest for the baby should matter more than what mom does or doesn't *want*. That is very much "talking reality". And this is what you are ignoring. My dd doesn't give a hoot whether or not I am happy about changing her poopy diapers. But I would wager anything that if she could tell me her preference and understand the consequences of the options (to change them or not to change them), she would want them to be promptly changed. Even if she knew I wasn't happy to do it>>>>>>>>>

At least somebody follows my thinking, haha. I was beginning to think I was alone.




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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-14-2007
Thu, 12-18-2008 - 6:13pm

In my current mood, I'd probably tell my mom to get over herself, and BF me so I didn't end up such a sickly child & adult - and so my children didn't have to suffer as well. But then I haven't "felt the love" from her most of my life, so worrying about her needs and wants wouldn't be at the top of my list...>>>

I'm sorry you aren't feeling primo today Catherine. FWIW, I'd tell my mom to get over it too. I hate changing poopy diapers, especially since I use cloth. But um, it's part of the territory. I get physically ill when I have to do it. But it's part of having a baby, so I "get over it". IMNSHO, that's a poor reason to not breastfeed and I don't care if someone doesn't want to hear it.




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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-14-2007
Thu, 12-18-2008 - 6:23pm

The overwhelming presence of formula in our society IMO makes it too easy to give up. Say, for example, you wanted a med free birth, but the doc was pushing an epi on you. Every time you had a contraction the doc or nurse would remind you that you didn't have to deal with the pain. How easy would it be to give in and say yes? It happens SO much-this is why many women choose UCB or HB w/midwife.>>>>

Yes Yes YEs, thank you. This is my line of thought too. Formula makes it easy to give up. And it is supposed to. Yeah the function of formula is to feed babies, but let's not be naive and discount the advertising and profiteering involved in formula marketing. If it was truly meant to keep alive those babies who couldn't have breastmilk, the market would be much smaller.

And about epidurals. Yeah, you are so right. It is because of my exp with my first birth that I am wanting a home birth for any future children.




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