You keep asking why...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-13-2008
You keep asking why...
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Tue, 12-16-2008 - 2:48pm

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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-14-2007
Fri, 12-19-2008 - 7:35pm

That's what I was talking about when I said Eurocentric elitism. Just because the Queen's English wasn't spoken doesn't mean it was a "primitive" language.>>>

That ruffled my feathers too. After taking a linguistics course this semester, I understand language completely differently. Primitive is an ethnocentric term used to demean languages of other peoples seen as inferior. It's not fair to say that. Languages are all equally structured and with the exception of pidgins, have similar levels of complexity.

I know you probably know that Holly, I'm just venting.




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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-14-2007
Fri, 12-19-2008 - 7:37pm

Another way to get at this is ask mom if she understands the risks of formula, and/or explain the risks. If she knows the risks and she knows the risks primarily relate to the baby's well being, that properly puts the focus on the baby. It's more direct than "what would the baby want" and puts mom in the control position WITH the information rather than making her trying to imagine the baby being in control.>>>

I agree with you and would prefer it be that way. But sometimes when moms are having difficulty understanding the position, it is easier to pull out an analogy or a statement like that. but overall, I agree with this statement.




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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-14-2007
Fri, 12-19-2008 - 7:38pm
Yikes, I can only imagine. I didn't tear at all thanks to the attentiveness of midwife and her copious amounts of mineral oil. But I cringe just thinking aobut it!



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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-14-2007
Fri, 12-19-2008 - 7:40pm

I agree with the second sentence but from the minimal research I've gotten to do today in response to Harmony's questions, it appears the first sentence is not quite accurate. It looks like, at least in modern HG societies, the baby is worn and the breast is offered multiple times per hour. So mom goes about her daily business (after the initial recovery period which may put mom in seclusion) and baby comes along for the ride, nursing as necessary. http://www.parentingscience.com/breastfeeding-on-demand.html I know this article doesn't say that specifically, but I think it's implied in noting just a 30 to 40 day seclusion and then the prevalence of baby wearing and cosleeping. Note also the comment that women in at least one modern HG society can get other women to give "supplemental" feeding to their newborns. Not all, just supplemental.>>>

Oops, I guess I didn't clarify. What I meant was, if mom was nursing her own PLUS another woman's baby, or two other woman's babies, she'd be laid up all day!




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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2008
Fri, 12-19-2008 - 7:41pm

>>>>>Your primary argument: Some women just don't want to bf and this has historically been the case. When women gave up prematurely, other women were ready to step in and help.<<<<

I believe I came up with three groups, this was only one of the groups. If you end up reading the rest of the posts others were able to see what I was getting at, at least enough to discuss it, though not all agreed with me (which is totally fine, I'm no expert says so right in my signature). I think most people had some really good points and it's been a very interesting discussion. I don't know if it's possible to cover our entire human history wrt to bf'ing but as much as that could hope to be accomplished in a single thread, the women here have done an excellent job. I got a lot out of this discussion from everyone posting similar and opposing views. Hat's off to everyone in this thread.

>>>>Of course I'm never going to be able to completely answer your posts because you'll always change the game and then charge me with not staying a step ahead of you.<<<<

Below you say you try to AVOID using "always" and "never" but here you use them directly to discredit my debate tactics. Why? Most others kept up with me without complaining about my debate style (not everyone though, lol). If you are too frustrated by my posts, you are free to skip my posts completely.

>>>>>On top of that, I'm reading a lot of straw men in your post to me. I choose to avoid absolutes like "always" or "never," so to infer that I have said them is a direct misrepresentation of my argument.<<<<

My questions were NOT intended to infer you SAID those things, they were questions that came to my own mind from reading your posts, others posts and just questions I had that came from thinking about the topic. Questions intended to further the discussion. If I have misunderstood your position then me asking questions about your position are chance to show me where I have missed the point. If you don't want to, okay.

>>>>>I never said that only the very rich could hire a wet nurse, only that those who did had to have the means and wet nurses weren't cheap.<<<<

I understand.

Me: "Putting anything you could concoct into a bottle or a cup was not done?" You: >>>>>
Yes, I'm sure there were instances of that. What part of your primary argument is that statement designed to uphold?<<<<<

Women who didn't want to bf'd might have attempted to come up with alternatives on their own, even if it meant the baby wouldn't survive or wouldn't survive well.

>>>>>Your argument has been lost in "what if" scenarios and random examples. Exactly what are these sources designed to show?<<<<<

I apologize. I find the topic interesting, I was curious, I did some reading online and asked some questions of the historian and those with anthropology backgrounds and people like me without either background who might also be curious and have an interest in discussing it. I think it worked because this has been an incredibly interesting and eye opening (and somewhat disturbing) thread!

>>>>The problem with the use of online sources for the argument of history (which has been my only argument in this vein, you will notice) is that online sources are notoriously suspect. Many of the sites you posted up are websites that I would reject out of hand for historical research quality.<<<<

I agree, which is why I said I provided them for discussion purposes only, and said specifically that might mean someone will disagree with them.

>>>> There isn't much I trust online, and the access to databases that I do have are probably access that you don't have. Unless you have unrestricted access to something like JStor or Ebsco, in which case I can probably find some scholarly journal articles citations for you.<<<

I have unrestricted access to both, if you really want to dig them up you can. Don't feel like you have to though - at nearly 700 posts we might be near the end of the breastfeeding history life cycle (at least as it pertains to this thread). You certainly don't need to spend all that time on my account, I can't remember if you said, did you get all your papers done and is your semester work complete? I hope you are done and can enjoy a break. How much time do you have left until you are done? Is this a doctoral program you are in? I can't remember if I asked you this before, I apologize if it's a repeat.

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"The key to good decision making is not knowledge. It is understanding."
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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2008
Fri, 12-19-2008 - 7:43pm
My mom and sister and me used to watch MASH almost every night, it was on right after the news. I will never forget that episode, and the mom crying and Hawkeye realizing what she had done and what he had pushed her to do and how that affected him. Ugh, you are right, that fits right in with this discussion. So sad.
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"The key to good decision making is not knowledge. It is understanding."
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iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2008
Fri, 12-19-2008 - 7:47pm

>>>>Did I miss something or are we confusing statistics? My comment was in regards to women of the way distant past not "wanting" to bf, and I'm thinking that back when we listened to our bodies and instincts, it was less common than women today saying they don't want to bf. The 1-3% is the number I've always heard cited for true physical inability to bf -- incurable low supply due to insufficient tissue, hormone disorder, whatever.<<<<

I was agreeing there is 1-3% that absolutely can't, and maybe another small percentage on top of that who technically have enough supply but due other physical reasons cannot force themselves to continue. Back then (not now) and just speculating, I obviously can't prove it. I threw out a % to show that I am not trying to argue it was "common" for women to not want to as in lots of women did it, but that perhaps there were "some" (a small percentage).

If that doesn't make any sense, I apologize, it seems to be a big problem for me on this board :P

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"The key to good decision making is not knowledge. It is understanding."
Malcolm Gladwell Blink

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2008
Fri, 12-19-2008 - 7:49pm

>>>Besides the fact that this site cites absolutely *no* sources whatsoever except images. I'm not a cultural historian, but I can say that making inferences from images alone when text is available (and it is, for that particular period) is poor scholarship.<<<

Fair enough.

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"The key to good decision making is not knowledge. It is understanding."
Malcolm Gladwell Blink

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2008
Fri, 12-19-2008 - 7:55pm

>>>That's what I was talking about when I said Eurocentric elitism. Just because the Queen's English wasn't spoken doesn't mean it was a "primitive" language.<<<

I am sorry - I will withdraw my statement and consider my hand slapped. I meant early language, or caveman language. Whatever the politically correct term is let me know, that's the one I meant.

>>>>At the same time, you are projecting your own perceptions on a modern world on cultures hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of years ago. You make claims about how it likely was and when history and anthropology experts tell you it just doesn't seem logical, you want conclusive, irrefutable proof that you are wrong. What about conclusive proof of your claims?<<<<

I am "making claims"???? I said I had an imagine in my mind, an idea, a thought shared with others for purposes of discussing ideas and thoughts! Where in this thread have I asked for conclusive, irrefutable proof that I am wrong??????????? Where did I ever suggest in that post you replied to that the "imagine in my mind" of what it MIGHT have been like would ever be provable??????

Others had ideas too, thoughts shared just like mine. I asked them if they had information or links or evidence to support their ideas, but I didn't demand it or expect it would be conclusive or irrefutable!

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"The key to good decision making is not knowledge. It is understanding."
Malcolm Gladwell Blink

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-24-2008
Fri, 12-19-2008 - 8:06pm

>>>>That ruffled my feathers too. After taking a linguistics course this semester, I understand language completely differently. Primitive is an ethnocentric term used to demean languages of other peoples seen as inferior. It's not fair to say that. Languages are all equally structured and with the exception of pidgins, have similar levels of complexity.

I know you probably know that Holly, I'm just venting.<<<<

Well I hope you can understand that I may not have had the same course and thought primitive meant earliest human period. They should fix the dictionary if this is offensive, because the dictionary says that is what primitive means. I did not mean to offend anyone. What do I say instead if anyone could be so kind as to enlighten me rather than simply call me out. Do I say caveman language? HG language? I shall use whatever term the educated women of the board tell me is appropriate if only someone could be so kind as to tell me what that IS.

I'm suddenly feeling like I'm in a GEICO commercial.

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"The key to good decision making is not knowledge. It is understanding."
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