male circumcision = female sexual power

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-21-2004
male circumcision = female sexual power
36
Thu, 09-23-2004 - 4:03pm
Posts seem to be getting pulled at the moment, including one of mine, so 1st a warning. The title tells you whats coming. If you don't think you can cope, don't read on. I don't want to be accused of offending anyone.

I've posted before on adult sexuality and am doing so again 'cos I think its important. This issue is not just about babies and nappies.

The point: male circumcision gives women sexual power over men. The reason? Circumcision massively decreases the sensitivity of the penis and makes it much harder to masturbate. Therefore, men only get real sexual satisfaction from vaginal penetration. The woman decides whether this happens, so the woman has control.

Justification? - people like sarah jessica parker are always complaining that US guys try to stick their tongue down your throat on the 1st date, and bed you on the second. US teenagers are obsessed with 'getting laid.' Europeans are so much more emotionally sensitive they say. Thats because they're more physically sensitive as well!!! This is also why guys marry younger in the US than in europe - regular vaginal sex without a condom - which reduces sensitivity even more.

Last century, people thought masturbation was really bad, therefore it was suppressed. Teenage girls were controlled psychologically - told their genitals were shameful and dirty, and that only immoral women masturbated. Teenage boys were controlled by circumcision - promoted by a guy called John Harvey Kellogg - he said it should be done without any pain relief, and that it worked for the reasons listed above.

However, in 2004 masturbation is promoted. 1 in 3 women in the US owns a vibrator - you can give yourself a massively intense, rapid, easy orgasm whenever you want - no man needed. John Harvey Kellogg would turn in his grave! Men still get circumcised though - surely not fair!

Why does it still happen? - power.

Last night I was in a bar and some sexist bozo fondled my ass. Was I angry? - no, I smiled sweetly to myself and remembered that the female sex got its revenge in on this guy the day he was born.

Totally and utterly emasculated - condemned to a lifetime of unsensitivity and dificult masturbation - by a woman.

Feminists like Andrea Dworkin often say the penis is a weapon that men use against women. Well - cut part of it off when he's defenceless and maybe you feel a lot better.

We all have female friends who told us when we were pregnant how we 'MUST' have our baby boy circumcised - why? - this was the only time in their lives they would have total, ultimate power over a man's penis.

The next time some circ'ed guy aggressively claims on this board how he really enjoys sex? - Just think - would he really want to believe that actually, women decided the day he was born to put a MASSIVE limit on how much he would EVER enjoy sex? - I think not.

There was a time when we waited for the 1st guy to come along to propose, so we could pay our rent. Nowadays, young women have careers so they don't need a man for financial stability.

Therefore I give you the young woman of today - with her career and her vibrator, she makes circumcised guys crawl on their knees around her. I'm sure anyone here with a teenaged or 20 something son knows exactly what I mean.

This is not an attack on anyone, not women who have circumcised their sons, definitely not the guys themselves. They're just ideas. Thats all. Think about them, respond if you want to.

Michelle

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Sun, 10-17-2004 - 5:58pm
""I've never heard any guy I know say he wanted to be uncircumcised, & the one's I've asked are glad they were circumcised & given the option would, but that is their choice & should be. If you listen to some on here they spew out studies at you & try to speak for men when in fact they have no more first hand knowledge about how men feel anymore then men know how it feels to have a period.""

I don't think anyone is trying to speak for men, by addressing the fact that there are anatomical differences that can be advantageous for sex. It is just a fact that is appropriate to be added into the discussion about whether or not people should have their infants circumcised, which is totally different. What circumcised men say about it really isn't pertinent, IMO. For one thing, if they haven't ever had a foreskin, that they can remember, they are not in a very good position to judge. I don't even think it is appropriate to ask a man who was circumcised as an infant whether he prefers being circumcised. Besides the fact that he has no way of knowing that, it really doesn't belong as part of the discussion of whether babies should have their penises cut. If we were comparing one form of circumcision to another, asking how men who've had the procedure how satisfied they are with their anatomy might be appropriate, but we are comparing the idea of performing amputative surgery on a body part to the idea of leaving a body part normal and perfectly healthy. That is not just comparing apples and oranges. That is comparing apples and bricks! The fact that the person whose body is in question is totally incapable of having any input into it, as well as other considerations, such as the fact that the surgery can be chosen, in the future, but not undone, increase the burden of proof on the side of circumcision proponents.

I think it is helpful to remind ourselves that this board is here for the debate of the question of infant circumcision, and that it is better for the discussion to pretty much stick to that. I think the topic of sexual function has a place, but sometimes it wanders beyond what is really pertinent to the question of neonatal circumcision.

Aloha,

Noelani

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-05-2004
Sun, 10-17-2004 - 12:50pm
In my original post I was not saying that circumcised men do not enjoy sexual intercourse - in fact I was saying exactly the opposite - the ONLY real pleasure they get is from sex, as opposed to masturbation. I also don't doubt that a large number of american women prefer a circumcised penis.

Most of the men I've encountered are ready & willing to get whatever they can, be it from vaginal sex or masturbation. My bf is a perfect example, if I'm having my friend & we get intimate, I'll masturbate him & he seems willing & content to be done that way just as much as the other. I don't know what all women like but I like the looks & feel of an exposed penis, that doesn't say anything about what I think of infant circumcision & whether it's right or wrong. If my guy is circumcised I look at it as an extra benifit to me & I will feed his ego on how great he looks (even though I would still love him regardless). I think if the guys hear negativity about how bad it was for them to be circumcised it will work negatively on their psych's also. All this "anti" rhetoric can make these guys more self conscious & they can lose their self esteem. I likin it as praising a child for doing good or ridiculing him for being handicapped, he can feel good about himself or lose all self esteem. I never thought of it as having control over the guys, but it is an interesting concept you have.


This may be the wrong thing to say on a website like ivillage.com, but hear goes:

I really don't believe that what women want is the most important thing in the entire universe!!!!

How about what men would choose if they had been given the option?

I've never heard any guy I know say he wanted to be uncircumcised, & the one's I've asked are glad they were circumcised & given the option would, but that is their choice & should be. If you listen to some on here they spew out studies at you & try to speak for men when in fact they have no more first hand knowledge about how men feel anymore then men know how it feels to have a period. If you want to know facts go right to the source not the assumptions of some stranger. Don't worry about saying the wrong thing, it's great to hear everyone's views, idea's, facts & assumptions, pro or con.



I'm sure most men would prefer all women to have 36DD breasts but that doesn't mean we all get forced to undergo a painful, unnecessary surgical procedure without our consent...

I have small breasts & have been self conscious about them all my life & considered implants. The guys were talking about breast implants & all the guys said they would rather have the real thing instead of fakes, which made me feel good & I've felt better about mine since the guys reassured me of their views. So I think if I said to my bf I wish he was uncircumcised because I like lots of foreskin I know how he would feel also. Maybe the guys were aware of my struggles & doing what I do, thinking of the persons feelings.







Avatar for joolsplus2
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Fri, 10-15-2004 - 2:58pm
I agree with you, Emily...it's not so much the foreskin that makes sex different, as it is our own experiences and the relationships we're in.

Julie

9 out of 10 carseats are installed wrong.  Could yours be?

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-22-2003
Fri, 10-15-2004 - 2:34pm
"It did to a large degree for the overwhelming majority of these women.."

Like I said that is just my personal experiance, and my opinion and I truly in no way imply that circumcision is justifed. I don't believe that it is at all. However, I would like to say that as lucky as I am in the sex department; I have thought about what it would be like if my husband did have his foreskin. In fact, I have even mentioned foreskin restoration to him. I don't think he will go that route anytime soon, but who knows. After getting all the information on circumcision, he did say that he wishes he would have had a choice.

Emily Attached Mom  to Fiona 

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-18-2004
Fri, 10-15-2004 - 2:13pm
***I guess my point is that one's quality of sex doesn't necessarily depend on one's anatomy. Just my opinion**

It did to a large degree for the overwhelming majority of these women..

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/ohara/

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-22-2003
Fri, 10-15-2004 - 1:49pm
I have read all these posts and I've been trying to put into words how I feel about it. I think the first post has a genuine point. I have often thought about circucision and other adult behavior like rape and other violence against women, i.e. much less instances of sexual assult in Europe than in the US. I know that is off the subject, but I think these arguments are something that we should look at as a society.

As far as the sexual satisfaction aspect... I too have had partners that have been both circumcised and intact. I truly can say that personally I haven't noticed a difference. In fact my partner that I had right before my husband was not circ'd and my husband is. But I can honestly say that my husband and I have much better sex than I had with my uncirc'd ex-boyfriend or circ'd ex-boyfriend for that matter. I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with the anatomy of his penis. I think that it has more to do with myself knowing my body better, having more personal self-esteem and just being really lucky to have a partner that is concerned with my plesure. And without going into too much detail, (I hope I don't offend anyone) my husband is the only partner I have had that I have been able to achieve a vaginal orgasm with. But again I don't think that it has to do with his anatomy. I guess my point is that one's quality of sex doesn't necessarily depend on one's anatomy. Just my opinion.

Emily Attached Mom  to Fiona 

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Fri, 10-15-2004 - 11:03am
""I'm sure most men would prefer all women to have 36DD breasts but that doesn't mean we all get forced to undergo a painful, unnecessary surgical procedure without our consent...""

I think this is an excellent point! There really isn't any other surgery that Americans would think of having performed on their babies to achieve some trait that the parents think is sexier. In fact, everyone thinks it is reprehensible to have anything but circumcision done, for such a reason.

I always think about my ex's partner (they are both OB/GYNs). This guy is a major womanizer, now on his third wife. One of the requirements to get the "honor" of being his wife, or girlfriend, is to get breast implants. I just noticed that his latest wife looks like she has gotten larger implants, now. I guess the Barbie doll figure that the first implants gave her wasn't good enough. But how many American women would have any respect for a man who made such requirements of women? Not many! Yet, those women had a choice in wanting to be with these guys and, although they may not really want implants (his second wife didn't want them and only got them after things had started going down hill between them) they are not forced, like an infant being circumcised.

Americans have just been SO blinded, when it comes to circumcision. In my parents' generation, many parents honestly thought that it HAD to be done, and there was no choice in the matter at all. What I see now is that a greater number are starting to see the issue much more for for what it is. The circumcision rate is still much too high, of course, but there is definitely a big improvement. At least most parents are not completely blind, as they used to be. I feel like what has kept the rates similar for about the last 15 years is the fact that anesthesia is used so much more often than it used to be. I believe there are many parents who at least accept the fact that it is an extremely painful and traumatic procedure and, even though the use of anesthesia may make it so that some parents go ahead and circumcise, where they may not, if there was not option of pain relief, that represents a much greater level of information about it than what there was before. I believe that we will see a huge drop when the generation being born now is having children, as those people build on the amount of knowlege their parents had. There are alot of things like it, actually. Look at the history of civil rights for African Americans. If you look back in history, there is a definite improvement that took place, generation, by generation.

Aloha,

Noelani

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-21-2004
Thu, 10-14-2004 - 12:42pm
In my original post I was not saying that circumcised men do not enjoy sexual intercourse - in fact I was saying exactly the opposite - the ONLY real pleasure they get is from sex, as opposed to masturbation. I also don't doubt that a large number of american women prefer a circumcised penis.

This may be the wrong thing to say on a website like ivillage.com, but hear goes:

I really don't believe that what women want is the most important thing in the entire universe!!!!

How about what men would choose if they had been given the option?

I'm sure most men would prefer all women to have 36DD breasts but that doesn't mean we all get forced to undergo a painful, unnecessary surgical procedure without our consent...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Sat, 10-09-2004 - 10:13am
I have always pointed out that the difference between circ'd and non-circ'd was strictly anatomical, and not what I considered to be of importance in choosing a partner. I would think the quote about the blowup doll came from someone who had experience with more casual sex, versus my total of two men. I know it was meant to be comical, but I am pretty sensitive about things that tend to offend circumcised men, most of whom had no control over what happened to their foreskins.

Without getting into too much detail, my experience was that there was definitely an anatomical difference. It took me a while to figure out what it was. With my fiance, who was circumcised, the relationship, which started when I was only 16, was very close and intimate, in more ways than one. However, I had a serious problem with excrutiating pain after sex. It would start a minute or so after, and then curl my toenails for about ten minutes. However, although I couldn't completely deny it, I would grit my teeth and not let on to my fiance that it was as bad as it was. When I married a different guy (my parents had gone to elaborate efforts to break me up with my first fiance, whom I believe is my soul mate), at 19, I expected the same pain, but it wasn't there. This really puzzled me, because he was quite a bit better "endowed" than the first, and the relationship went sour so fast that normal response became a thing of the past early on. For years, I could only see two reasons that I thought should have made the pain WORSE, so it didn't make sense to me. It wasn't until the first edition of Jim Bigelow's "The Joy of Uncircumcising" came out, that I realized that the difference was the gliding action of the foreskin.

At this point in time, divorced after more than a quarter century, I am hoping to find another mate, (physically, spiritually, etc.). I know that my chances of finding another American man in my age range who is not circumcised are pretty remote. However, I don't see that as having any importance, as far as a loving relationship. If I end up married to a circumcised man, I will just try out the new warming KY jelly, and let him know there is such a thing as foreskin restoration, but that the choice is totally up to him.

I really only have one problem with the idea of being with another circumcised man and that is that I hate to see evidence that anyone I love has been hurt, even if it was far in the past. That was how I felt, at 16. Even though I knew very, very little about the topic, at that time, I knew that the young man I loved had a scar, as well as permanent suture holes, and that there were sharp instruments that had made them. I wanted to go back in time and protect the little baby that he had been, but it never dawned on me to even briefly entertain any thoughts of rejecting him, or loving him less, because of it.

Aloha,

Noelani

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-18-2004
Fri, 10-08-2004 - 9:01pm
***I will see if I still have a copy of that questionnaire, if anyone is interested.**

If I remember correctly, the study included the questions on the questionaire.

Her later book from the study "Sex as Nature Intended it" includes them AND the comments from the women--now these are really condemning of circumcisons:

my favorite comment?

"It has often crossed my mind that circumcised men should be issued one of the blow-up dolls--and stay away from living creatures with feeling!"

Now, I just HAVE to ask Noelani, was this comment yours? LOL