Who should be circumcised - boys or men?

Avatar for islaywhisky
Community Leader
Registered: 01-06-2002
Who should be circumcised - boys or men?
51
Thu, 09-13-2012 - 7:46pm

As we all know, the AAP has now recommended that parents should consider circumcision for their boys - based on the erroneous African studies a few years ago.

In Tanzania male circumcision usually costs the equivalent of $10-17 in a country where 36% of the 44m population lives on less than $2 a day. But free adult circumcision is being supported by a $40m fund from the American government. Under the programme the aim is to circumcise 2.8 million men by 2015 - using female nurses who's training is being fast-tracked for lack of enough male doctors.

Thankfully, this does not include boys who are are not yet sexually active - which is significant when compared with the AAP's predilection for infant circumcision. Where is the reasoning behind the AAP's statement?

Men or boys... or none at all? If the foreskin harbours STDs why are British and European populations so sexually healthy, by and large?

Christopher

P.S. This is a repeat of my post on the Intact Foreskin Support section.

"Education is the discovery of our own ignorance." Will Durant


"Almost any manmade phenomenon i

Avatar for xxxs
Community Leader
Registered: 01-25-2010
Thu, 09-27-2012 - 12:46am

Infants are far better.  Adults take longer to recover and the pain is greater as is the problem with erections causing pain until it is healed.  As an infant that "pain" is forgotten.  An adult therefor need not have to bother.

chaika

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-23-2010
Thu, 09-27-2012 - 1:52am

Like I said, I was throwing the infant circumcision side a bone, I would never in a million years think that was a legitimate justification. In fact, I think it's one of the most heinous justifications considering it can be used to potentially justify some pretty disgusting beliefs and practices, and it teaches that giving into conformity and giving into the cruelty and ignorance of children/adolescents is a virtue, which is the opposite of the truth.  If you teach your kid that, you're probably going to turn them into a shallow jerk who will probably be the one in the locker room doing the bullying. However, I've talked to men who have grown up intact and were teased and ridiculed for not being cut (although I'm not even remotely trying to imply that this is every intact kid's experience), and it seems to have been a very hurtful thing for them. I can't ignore that that can happen for some intact kids in certain contexts, and I can't ignore the negative impact it had on them. I was trying my best to list advantages without getting into an argument about what's ethical and what isn't.

Neonates do not have the cognitive ability to form memories. I never said that the potential trauma from the pain couldn't affect future behavior though. It's entirely possible that the pain can traumatize an infant, resulting in an attachment disorder, and perhaps increase the risk of psychological disorder later in life. I believe that It has the potential to negatively alter the brain, both in the short term and long term, none of that requires the ability to form memories though.

I know that it's possible, and I did imply that I didn't know for sure, but I just doubt that it is nearly the issue that it is for adult post-op.

I did say it may be a problem, it was for me. I discovered masturbation by doing prone masturbation, and that can be rather rough on your penis, and some kids use certain things for lubrication that are very harmful to their skin. I remember using soap once, and the result was not pretty, to say the least.  And no one was there to educate me about what I should or shouldn't do, and I think that many other kids had that same experience, and those problems are mostly avoidable with a foreskin, everything you need is right there. It took me a while to figure out how to comfortably use my hands to masturbate. and I hated using lube (still do) and often just dry handed it until I could produce precum, which was sometimes was a bit of a wait. I had to have a friend put me up to using my hand, and when I tried the first time, I was very uncomfortable and confused about how that was supposed to work.

Masturbation is an extremely important part of an individual's sexual discovery, and I think circumcision does throw obstacles in their way.  No one seems to want to point this out though, because there isn't nearly enough value given to the effect on sexuality, there is way too little respect for male sexuality in this culture. We're just expected to be some grunting beasts, and if we can still accomplish some basic sexual function being circumcised, everything is a-okay. Who cares if we need to slop lube over us, or need a death grip on our penis to feel something, just as long as we're effective sperm donors and take care of those hormonal urges, we haven't been affected at all.

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-23-2010
Thu, 09-27-2012 - 1:55am

Just because the pain is forgotten/not formed into memory doesn't mean it didn't have any negative consequences in the brain. Besides, if someone repeatedly hit your baby across the face, would you think it was no big deal because they wouldn't remember it?

Avatar for xxxs
Community Leader
Registered: 01-25-2010
Thu, 09-27-2012 - 2:29pm

The argument of infant memories does not hold water.  It is the parents (or the state)  that decides.  As many record or adult circumcision from WW 2 can reveal.

chaika

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-23-2010
Thu, 09-27-2012 - 8:04pm
Who are you arguing against? I've repeatedly said that infants can't form memories, that doesn't negate the potential for them to be traumatized though. I don't know what the rest of your post meant.
Avatar for xxxs
Community Leader
Registered: 01-25-2010
Thu, 09-27-2012 - 8:38pm

Memories are non-extant.  The supposed trauma is then irrelevant.  After over 6000 years of experience it is therefore the parent's decision.

chaika

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-23-2010
Thu, 09-27-2012 - 10:16pm
Um, how does that make it irrelevant? It's been shown that infants can develop attachment disorders due to trauma, and circumcision is a painful enough procedure to be considered to be considered trauma.

I don't see how the age of the practice of circumcision (and it's older than that, it pre-dates recorded history) has any relevance to the ethics of parental choice. Your statement makes no sense.
Avatar for islaywhisky
Community Leader
Registered: 01-06-2002
Thu, 09-27-2012 - 10:46pm

Mark -

"I know that it's possible, and I did imply that I didn't know for sure, but I just doubt that it is nearly the issue that it is for adult post-op."

I simply needed to point out that indeed there is truth in that, though can we ever quantify the post-op pain an infant boy suffers? I would willingly endure a second circumcision to remove the last remnant of my foreskin if it saved a single boy from circumcision's aftermath. As an adult, I would have the abilty to cope with the pain.

Masturbation....

"I had to have a friend put me up to using my hand, and when I tried the first time, I was very uncomfortable and confused about how that was supposed to work."

I don't understand.  If you weren't using your hand initially, what were you using? Or do you mean a hand together with lube?  If dry with no lubrication, what did your friend advise? Do you get 'morning wood'? Most of us do from time to time, and even if we wake up without it, the penis is very 'willing' if you understand me? Try  just  loosely slapping  your penis to and fro between your curled fingers - it can work when we first wake. Circumcision leaves that much for us, if little else.

"Grunting beasts" and "effective sperm donors"  is a brutal fact when all is said and done. A circumcised penis is a crippled penis.

Christopher

"Education is the discovery of our own ignorance." Will Durant


"Almost any manmade phenomenon i

Avatar for xxxs
Community Leader
Registered: 01-25-2010
Thu, 09-27-2012 - 11:51pm

It is not releavent that infants "might: have trauma it is not provable nor does it matter that some "may"  have attachment have attachment disorders as these are individual and also may come from other factors. This have nothing to do with this obstruction of parental choice.  It is the rights or parents to choose an operation that has been done for human history based on some theory that is not quantifiable.  Nor does the argument that it is easier to masturbate valid reason not to choose the operation.

    What is is is a few people trying to impose their will on the body politic.  That I oppose.  There have been enough "theories" on how it is supposed to be inflicted on mankind through out the ages.

chaika

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-23-2010
Fri, 09-28-2012 - 12:39am

Of course we can't know exactly what infants go through post-op, I was merely trying to point out that erections during post-op is a complication that infants probably don't have, or at least it's not nearly as problematic as it is for adults.

Like I said, I did prone masturbation. You can google it if you don't know what it is.