Hard work = $250,000 ?
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| Fri, 10-24-2008 - 9:07am |
I’ve read repeatedly that the $250,000 is hard earned money that the government has no right to tax. Personally, I don’t believe that hard work consistently results in high salaries and I’m not convinced that people who make more money work harder or deserve more than most people. Most people, I believe, do work hard and most people are rewarded with 25,000 – 45,000 salary. Not all some hard workers make more and some make less. What do you think? Is the Just World view valid?
http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/beliefs7csend.pdf
most people have a strong need to believe that they live in a world that is just, in the sense that people generally get what they deserve, and deserve what they get. When confronted with data that contradicts this view they try hard to ignore, reinterpret, distort, or forget it —for instance by finding imaginary merits to the recipients of fortuitous rewards, or assigning blame to innocent victims.
Because of their imperfect willpower, individuals constantly strive to motivate themselves (or their children) towards effort, educational investment, perseverance in the face of adversity, and away from the slippery slope of idleness, welfare dependency, crime, drugs, etc. This is another recurrent finding from the sociological evidence. In such circumstances, maintaining somewhat rosy beliefs about the fact that everyone will ultimately get their “just deserts” can be very valuable. Furthermore, if enough individuals end up with the view that economic success is highly dependent on effort, they will ultimately represent a pivotal voting block, and set a low tax rate. Conversely, when individuals anticipate that society will carry out little redistribution, the costs of a deficient motivation to effort or savings are much higher than with high taxes and
a generous safety net. Each individual thus has greater incentives to maintain his belief that effort ultimately pays, and consequently more voters end up with such a world view.
For instance, data from the World Values Survey shows that only 29% of Americans believe that the poor are trapped in poverty, and only 30% that luck, rather than effort or education, determines income. The figures for Europeans are nearly double: 60% and 54% respectively. Similarly, Americans are more than twice as likely as Europeans to think that the poor are lazy (60% versus 26%).
Indeed, 59% of Americans agree or strongly agree that “in the long run, hard work usually brings a better life”; this view commands much less support in Europe, ranging from 34% in Sweden to 43% in Germany.
Is the “American dream,” according to our theory, just a self-sustaining collective illusion?


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"She has been in a mental hospital, and from seeing the other patients there, many who are homeless, I understand that being destitute is not always a matter of choice"
I am sorry for your sister, mental disorders are real and they too need to be acknowledged for those in need to use the many social programs available to them.
KAREN
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I agree with you Bridgette...to some extent...and then i agree with the OP....I agree that Addiction is a disease...as you discuss....
However...when the addiction is to something ilegal...i lose my sympathy....that is where i agree with OP...i would lump those addictions in with as you said "degenerate" thinkers....because...if the act is illegal, and they still chose to do it, and got addicted...while the addiction may not be thier fault, the exposure to the substance in the first place was...
for example, i may be a cocaine addict, but i
-Kristen
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-Kristen
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Well, the tax system already is unequal, and even McCain is not arguing that we all pay the same percentage in tax. I've even seen him in a video defending our progressive tax system when a potential voter made the argument that the system was "socialist." I've said this in a different thread: I really wish Obama had never used the phrase "spread the wealth around." Because what his tax plan is proposing to do is an adjustment in the progressive tax system that we already have. This is intended to boost the economy and the reasoning behind it is a lot of complex math that is honestly over my head. McCain and his advisors have a different plan to do the same thing, with their own math backing them up. Maybe one way to think about this is that rather than explain any of the math to us, they both try to distract us by getting us to focus on fairness. Obama gets us to focus on the unfairness of having wealth concentrated in the hands of so few; McCain gets us to focus on the unfairness of not giving tax cuts to everyone. And given the interesting arguments that we've all been giving on both sides, I'm starting to think that both candidates are right and both are wrong. But of course, its very fun to debate it! :-)
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yes yes
i agree....
it sounds like a good situation (mutually beneficial) that that poster had with migrant workers being legally employed on her farm.
but i agree that there is a chance for illegal migrant workers to be mistreated, and have no recourse....that is part of the problem....they are taken advantage of...and to me...the bad guy is the employer, not the worker...and i feel that they (employer) need to be punished...that would lower the illegal employment...if the employers had some consequences for thier actions.
-Kristen
I do think its interesting that you've chosen drug users as examples of "degenerate" thinkers and people who lack individual accountability. Having a lot of experience dealing with loved ones with addiction, I really consider addiction to be a mental disease that requires treatment, in the same way that cancer requires treatment. What is so tough about addiction though is that its causes aren't completely understood yet, and so it is tough to NOT treat it as a moral issue. Believe me I know--I have spent many years banging my head against a brick wall thinking that my mom should be able to control her addiction and that her addiction means she is irresponsible. My point to you (and also to absinthe), is that even though personal responsibility is important and that hard work is strongly related to outcomes, we need to take these exceptions and other factors into account in making policy decisions. In this particular case, I think it may be a worthwhile financial investment for the good of society to ensure that drug users get proper mental healthcare, potentially through reforms to the health insurance industry. I also think that we need to ensure that research in mental health is properly funded.
I do not have a problem making exceptions, but I also believe there needs to be
"they say that the increased cost of goods (food) will be canceled out by the decreased cost to society of having illegal neighbors,(driving illegally, and sending kids to public schools), and unemployed citizens."
KAREN
My father will get a ONE TIME payment of roughly $2M. By the time he pays capital gains tax AND state income tax, he will net about 50% of that. May sound like a lot to some but considering this is over 50 years worth of work (most spent at 60-80 hrs/week, some over 100 hrs) and considering that in his BEST years he made 2-4 times what his average employee did (who worked considerably less hours than him) AND considering some years he took $0 pay while still working all those hours (in order to meet payroll), it is not a lot. Not considering he had to sign as a personal guarantee for the business most of those years. It's honestly NOT a lot of money. Especially since he'll receive NO income after this payment.
Honestly, that's the whole problem with the tax system as it is now. It taxes the middle class the most. Even those who pay no federal income tax, still end up paying more taxes as a percentage of their wealth (or even income) than the truly wealthy. Obama's plan doesn't address the true problem or how to fix it - it just shifts more burden onto the upper middle class (NOT the rich.)
Oh your going to love Cozumel.
Mmmm, maybe my post was a little "all over the place."
1.) No I don't mind being forced to pay more taxes, to help my country or to help the less fortunate.
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