..."'If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen"

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-22-2000
..."'If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen"
56
Mon, 07-16-2012 - 10:30am

Are you serious????

This is where we are? The President of the United States makes this quote part of his reelection campaign?

America, if a majority buy into this, and do not reject it, the sun has set on us.

Sonny

Pages

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-03-2009

Either hope springs eternal or I'm a glutton for punishment....

If journalists were forced to reveal the names of their sources on any material which quoted those sources, many of them would be up the proverbial creek without a paddle.  I repeat again, that an absence of specific name is NOT in any way, shape, or form, an indication of "hearsay".  In fact, journalists have gone to court and even jail to protect the names of their sources, sometimes because they feared retribution against those sources, sometimes because they were concerned that if they"squealed" (for lack of a better word), they would be left (to continue the metaphor) high and dry.  http://www.rcfp.org/jailed-journalists

Out of idle curiosity, what has Keith sacrificed?  He clearly enjoys certain aspects of what he does and I'm guessing that he also can probably count on increased revenues for the same reasons that any entertainer or writer makes tours--even if the appearance is free, increased exposure rarely hurts profits!  And it's not always free:  http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,SS_011504_USO,00.html

From my point of view, the issue is what it costs a person, either monetarily, physically, or mentally to take whatever action is considered "patriotic".  Words?  Less than nothing.  Flag pins?  Zilch.  Saluting?  Zero.   Hand over heart?  Nada.  Waving a flag?  Not much.  

 

Jabberwocka

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-21-2006

It's hard to for you to adequately "make your point" because you have to keep going back to the fact that you are totally relying on the AP's ability to have gotten it right.  It has nothing to do with a "knowledge regarding journalism", which in my opinion has become a myth, but more to do with the reader's ability to analyze and process information on his own rather than have others do it for him. I'll think for myself. I don't need a journalist or anyone to do that for me. In my opinion, named sources, dates and documents sited by a reputable news outlet carry more weight than unnamed sources sited by another reputable news source. You write "Continuing to belabor a mistaken belief that if a source is not specifically named, the story is not credible, is a non sequitur and shows a lack of knowledge regarding journalism."  No it is not a non sequitur, the premise is and has always been  that  "a source not specifically named" can not refute information that has already been validated by named sources and other evidence.  "If "knowledge of journalism" means the inability to measure what you know to be true against presented information and make an informed decision, then you're right, I'm not a journalist and understand why the current belief that, journalism is dead, is prevalent.  Of course, I never claimed to be a journalist. My degrees are in the field of science and management.

I would concur that what you write is included in the definition of patriotism. I would also add that in my opinion, Toby Keith shows dedication and sacrifice in his support of our troops/country, if by no other measure than the 180 USO concerts he has performed for our soldiers. I read the article to which you linked and I enjoyed it. It shows his dedication, respect and courage. My understanding from what I have read, is that the soldiers enjoy his USO concerts and visits ( there certainly was a huge military turn-out here for him) and to me, that's what really matters.

Have a great Sunday.

ETA: This thread has ventured WAY off topic. This is my last post about the above topics. We can continue to debate them, if you want, but pehaps starting another thread would be helpful for those who might want to "jump in", but haven't kept up with this thread.

Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-03-2009

My definition of patriotism is far far far from words and flag flying.  There are people who get mighty hung up on the trappings of patriotism and mistake those trappings as "patriotism" on a par with the courage, sacrifice and dedication that true patriots display.   They are not equal. 

I have never said that AP prints the absolute truth without question.  Journalists, even with the best will in the world, don't KNOW the whole or absolute truth but the best do try to tease out the truth.  Continuing to belabor a mistaken belief that if a source is not specifically named, the story is not credible, is a non sequitur and shows a lack of knowledge regarding journalism.  Just isn't worth my time to try to correct anymore.  One does not reason with a brick wall. 

My source for the Toby Keith quote:  http://www.theboot.com/2009/11/03/toby-keith-military/

Jabberwocka

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-21-2006

So, your proposing that Obama stated it, but did not think it was not wrong to treat Europe in that manner? He doesn't regret it? He thinks it was okay to do? That's your POV?

If you listen to the speech on youtube, you'll hear that the tone of his voice is that of regret. He's certainly not telling them that this is how he thinks they were treated and he agrees with it and finds it acceptable. He's clearly trying to make ammends.

It's suppose to be pretty nice here, too, although we had wicked storms last night. I think we are going to head out onto the beach and pray that the jelly fish stay away!

You, too, have a nice weekend.

shell

Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-21-2006

 "My POV--patriotism is a lot like humility. When you go around claiming you are, you're not."

It's a prejudice POV. A sweeping generalization about those who display, claim, state their patriotism by words, actions, emblems (like a lapel pin), etc.. Perhaps my wording was a bit confusing. Your POV is your POV. The premise of your  generalization," that those who say they are patriotic, are not", is wrong,(in my opinion) as evidenced by many patriots I know, who are not ashamed to embrace and announce their patriotism. I personally, though, find it sad when a group of people are prejudged based on someone's preconceived notions about them. You have every right to have that POV and state it.

Debate is all about discussing opposing POV's.

Debate:To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.

I think it would be a pretty boring debate if I considered your POV's to be correct and you considered mine to be correct. That would be a discussion about things we agree on, not a debate.

shell

 

Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-21-2006

Your definition of patriotism:  "Patriotism is mostly words and flag flying*. You are entitled to any definition you choose. I subscribe to a more detailed definition and consider your definition to be more of a display of patriotism, rather than patriotism itself, but each to his own.

As I have said many times, the onus is on the reader to determine the validity of any information received (read, heard, etc.) and to measure it against what they already know to be true. To use the mentality which you defend , one would accept everything printed by the AP as absolute truth without question. Some might call that gullible.

You don't have to like Toby Keith. It's your prerogative. I consider him to be a good singer, song writer, performer and patriot. You can sing along to the Dixie Chicks and I'll not criticize it, even though I don't care for them.

You fail to give "credit" to the quoted material about Toby Keith. A rather bizarre omission for a journalist.  I'm sure that it was unintentional and that you'll edited in the source.

I hope you and your family have a nice Saturday and enjoy the day.

shell

Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-03-2009

How does one proclaim my POV wrong? It's my point of view, my opinion. Be sad, if you wish. Disagree, if you wish. But don't ever presume that your opinion or that of another with whom you agree is "right" or as in an earlier post "correct"; while others who do not agree are "wrong".

That mindset is disastrous in debate.

 

Jabberwocka

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-03-2009

Got it. 

Patriotism is mostly words and flag flying*.  

AP is a legitimate news source except for those stories with which you personally disagree.

You also have the ability to change the tone and definitions of words to suit your preconceptions.

In other words, your opinion matters more than just about anything else.  Not much to debate then. 

*Since the early 2000's, Toby Keith has made a very good living off that definition.  Like John McCain, he's found it easy to be brave while others are protecting his you-know-what in combat zones.  What's more, he becomes a rather bizarre mixture of boasting and defensive, when that fact is pointed out.  "If I've got a guy who's popping off going, 'Oh, you do all this troop stuff, but you ain't ever enlisted' ... I didn't. There wasn't a draft, but my dad did, and I've been on the front line a lot. I've been on some bases on some front lines that a lot of enlisted people haven't. I have soldiers and marines [ask me], 'Where'd you go?' And I'll tell them, and they'll go, 'Dang, I didn't even go up there!' And they'll ask me questions: 'Was it dangerous? What did it look like? How far from air support were you?' And these are guys wearing uniforms right now. I don't look at that as a service as much as I look at it [as] an adventure for me. I get to go do stuff nobody gets to do. I get to take pictures and see the world that even TV cameras don't get to see sometimes."  As the wife, mother, and daughter of military veterans, I am underwhelmed. 

Jabberwocka

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-21-2006

So you think he stated it as fact with no remorse. He was indifferent, so he doesn't think it was wrong? I am shocked that you don't think that he thought what he verbalized was wrong. He was stating the "facts" and was proud of them. You say he is telling the "truth and it hurts', but he isn't even the least bit remorseful about it ? He is in agreement with it, glad it happened and feels no remorse about it at all?

How ridiculous!!!!!!! It was an apology. Of course he said it in a remorseful tone, other wise it would have been pompous and smug. You can't have it both ways. Either is was a statement that America had been wrong in their attitude and he felt bad about it or he was just reminding them of it and couldn't care less. Which was it?

Why are you reluctant to call it what it was?

shell

Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-21-2006

Toby Keith is a patriot, Do a little research before you dismiss him based on words alone. You'll find that his actions, songs and speech confirm that he is a true patriot. In his own words, his motto is  "I support the troops". I am saddened by those who have an antithesis view to his.

The word you used was "jingoistic",which means "frantically patriotic, flag waving". It's ashamed that some would not consider that a compliment. We embrace being frantically patriotic.

I never questioned the credibility of the AP. My beef was with the article itself, evidenced by the statements of mine that you pasted.. Clearly, the AP has no issue approving human interest pieces and allowing the reader to decide for themselves the validity of the facts. Some readers will believe whatever they read and others will question with discernment everything they read. The AP gives that autonomy to its readers.

You write. " My POV--patriotism is a lot like humility. When you go around claiming you are, you're not.

I am impressed that you are willing to admit to this generalization and verbalize it.

In our family, we are patriotic. We have taught our children to be patriotic. We fly our American flag daily and feel indebted to those who risk their lives for our freedom, thanking them every chance we get. We believe in outwardly showing our patriotism. Your prejudicious statement, '--patriotism is a lot like humility. When you go around claiming you are, you're not." , is just plain wrong. It saddens us that some Americans feel this way. Obama claims to be patriotic, but you reject that?

I think this may be your most enlightening post. I have enjoyed reading it and responding to it.

shell

Photobucket

Pages