So what happens on Nov 5th? or after...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-03-2008
So what happens on Nov 5th? or after...
340
Wed, 10-29-2008 - 1:43am

So how will the result be handled by you (as in you in general) ?

Mommy to Rowen and Weylin, my boys rule- ME

Photobucket

Pages

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-09-2008
Tue, 11-18-2008 - 8:29am
Still has everything to do with religion. If not everyone can conceive a child then only those who can conceive should be married(by your theory). We are already over populated so some people not having children
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-15-2008
Tue, 11-18-2008 - 8:51am

I have to say..I'm very sorry that so many have used such ugly words to describe your family...your wife and you in general. I know it's small comfort..but there are those of us who see you and your family as just as equal and deserving as any other family. I was at Babies R Us with my youngest and ran into the most lovely gay couple. Both men were so happy and overjoyed to have finally been able to adopt a beautiful baby girl. I saw the joy and love in their hearts...and it is beyond me how anyone could deny them the same joy I have with my children. The issue of adoption is always brought up in the abortion debate.......oooh look....so many loving people who want children of thier own so badly....don't abort. But they should put a further notation on there. We only want straight people who think and belive like us to adopt....narrowing the pool quite a bit. I find this whole issue yet again reaffirming why I don't participate in any sort of organized religion. I will love and be friends with who I choose. I will accept and acknowledge the rights of all law abiding people. I simply can't see a God that wants us to be so hateful and ugly to other human beings. *hugs* Have a cup of tea..and know that not all people are so ugly and unaccepting. Yes I am straight...but not narrow...and I hope for the day that all families have the same rights as mine. Much love to you and yours.


PS.....being as I have a LOT of shoes.....I can't see the negative in it....hehe.

Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket Photobucket
Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-23-2008
Tue, 11-18-2008 - 8:51am

There is no conceivable way

Phot
iVillage Member
Registered: 09-08-2006
Tue, 11-18-2008 - 8:54am

Argument one: The phrase 'separation of Church and state' is of recent origin, and the concept was not known or promulgated by the founders.

False. The Founders were well aware of the threats posed by religion/state entanglement; it's what gave the world Kings with "divine right."

The exact phrase was first used in Thomas Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists, explaining the decision to seperate state and religion:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for is faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."


James Madison, principal author of the constitution:

"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State." (1819).

Argument two: But the founders meant only that no sect of Christianity was to be elevated above another, but still meant our government to be Christian...

"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform" (Madison, Annals of Congress, 1789).

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?" (Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance)

"Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. " (ibid)

"How a regulation so unjust in itself, so foreign to the authority of Congress, and so hurtful to the sale of public land, and smelling so strongly of an antiquated bigotry, could have received the countenance of a committee is truly a matter of astonishment ." (Madison, 1785, letter to James Monroe, on a failed attempt by congress to set aside public funds to support churches)

Argument three: But one of the first acts of Congress was to appoint a Christian chaplain!

This they did do, years before the ratification of the bill of rights. Madison's objection:

"The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected of our country" (George Washington, 1789).

"In the course of the opposition to the bill in the House of Delegates, which was warm & strenuous from some of the minority, an experiment was made on the reverence entertained for the name & sanctity of the Saviour, by proposing to insert the words "Jesus Christ" after the words "our lord" in the preamble, the object of which would have been, to imply a restriction of the liberty defined in the Bill, to those professing his religion only. The amendment was discussed, and rejected by a vote of agst." (James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance)

"Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offense against God, not against man: To God, therefore, not to man, must an account of it be rendered." (ibid)

"The appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment'" (James Madison, Veto, 1811)

"It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it was by the indulgence of one class of the people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that those who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it, on all occasions, their effectual support." (George Washington, letter to the Touro Synagogue 1790. )


"We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society." (John Adams)

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses...." (John Adams, 1787)

"...Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." (ibid)

Further quotes:

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith." (Thomas Paine, the Rights of Man)

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish , appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the profession of a priest for the sake of gain, and in order to qualify himself for that trade he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?" (Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason)




http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa070202a.htm



 

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-23-2008
Tue, 11-18-2008 - 8:59am
Well said! : )

pregnancy Photobucket Photobucket
BARACKED2.jpg picture by irishnutmeg
Phot
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-04-2008
Tue, 11-18-2008 - 9:00am

<>

This is exactly where wila's argument falls apart, and where I think we may have reached that point in the debate where one person is just... (how do I put this nicely?) not really making enough sense to continue. If she makes the claim that she does indeed believe marriage is only valid if it produces biological children, then her argument will make sense. Otherwise, it's a bit pointless.

Oh, and wila, "civil" doesn't have an E on the end.

Lilypie Breastfeeding Ticker

Lilypie 1st Birthday Ticker
iVillage Member
Registered: 09-08-2006
Tue, 11-18-2008 - 9:05am

As far as the debate on the right of marriage for homosexual couples:


It is not a religious right

 

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-09-2007
Tue, 11-18-2008 - 9:23am

"Ther is a profound difference between the natural impregnation, natural birth, and raisng of children and the purchase of children.

Jess


Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-09-2008
Tue, 11-18-2008 - 11:09am

My son was conceived via IVF while my husband was serving his country in Iraq. We did not have sex to have our son and my husband was probably the only soldier that was happy is wife got pregnant while he was deployed;) My family, however, is very much real! We've been through two deployments, several TDY's, pregnancy loss, loss of parents, and 4 large moves. We have had more "marriage stresses" than most people will have in the whole time they are married. Trust me our marriage is very much real even though we didn't have intercourse to have our son! If we have another child it won't be because we had intercourse either. We will pay a doctor to assist us in bringing a child into this world. The child will be real and our love for the child will be real as well.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-23-2008
Tue, 11-18-2008 - 2:50pm

I don't think anyone with a rational or realistic understanding of "family" would ever question the realness of your marriage or your son.


And to think that sex has to be responsible for producing a family is such a sad notion to me. What's the point of ever bringing a child into this world to put up for adoption if that child can't ever be considered "real"? Or if that family, whether gay or straight, can't be considered a real family? That's the definition of narrow-minded, if you ask me.


pregnancy Photobucket Photobucket
BARACKED2.jpg picture by irishnutmeg
Phot

Pages