Job

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-29-2012
Job
6
Fri, 05-24-2013 - 10:19pm

I'm getting this off my chest... The story of Job (I'm sure your familiar) It was the first time I argued with my Dad about religion, before that I pandered and nodded my head! But when he told me that story I erupted... Not a single response from my dad made me feel better about it... He told me that God was teaching the Devil a lesson about humans and Forced Job to confront his faith! (Very similar to DeenasDads response) I just couldn't get my head around the horrifying implications, I never understood how Job could forgive God for such a demonstration... Now if you tell me that it is just a myth, thats fine, but alot of you see a morel backbone in this story that eludes me! Also I'm sure plenty of you think that this happened in reality! I won't go to deep into it, to leave room for debate... But please someone tell me how God justified his wager! If you tell me Job was rewarded for it, you clearly have never lost a family member!

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-01-2013
In reply to: mysteryalizereX
Thu, 08-01-2013 - 10:52pm

Boy I tell You.    This God / Spirit / Man character is sure a Creative Individual. 

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REMEMBER ....In ISLAMIC COUNTRIES, When Non - Muslims are Attacked / Killed .- 
 
The Muslims Across the Middle East and IN the USA -  NEVER Rise Up and Put A Stop to The Killing and Violence.   To me, Muslims REALLY Dont Care..  To me, Islam is not trully a religion OF Peace.. 

The Muslim WORLD does not Bat an Eye or Skip a Heart beat.
 
 . Learn the TRUTH /FACTS  about ISLAM    Thank You. Protect Yourself  \  Educate Yourself /.  Everyone has a right to know the FACTS.
and 

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iVillage Member
Registered: 07-29-2012
In reply to: finalfan
Sun, 05-26-2013 - 5:23am

Now I don't know what you saw or have been through, but I can't imagine that anyone would read the bible and think that it parallels reality and describes an unseen mysterious realm that is behind a veil of ummm "God Cloth".

Then you'd be seriously underestimating billions of Christians, Jews and Muslims for thousands of years.

But they make it so easy!

I have had several instances where I have been presented with the option of having a relationship with these characters in a book, and I think "are you having a laugh"? It is something you can devote your entire life to and never find the universal "Truth"!

I'm not sure what characters you're referring to, but some people find their faith to be the only "truth" they need.

You know that one guy whats his name.. oh yeah God, and also that other dude that did a bunch of cool tricks with water and bread.... oh and Faith is the only "truth" they are going to get!

(Muslims, Jews, mormons, protestant, luther, catholic, evangelist,....) I am not interested in the thought of crucifiction (Although I will watch the ocasional "Saw" movie) or Hell, or the Devil, or Job, or Adam ,Eve, Noah, Jonah, Isaac, Abraham..... These things only help to remind us that "Life is just a test" and the horrible things in the world are justified through some devine equation that I don't think anyone truly understands! It all leaves such a bad taste in my mouth, I feel like you are selling me a turd sandwich, and getting mad at me for not liking it!

Crucifixion wasn't a test and the Bible doesn't offer "justification" for "horrible things in the world."  I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding, or outright ignorance, of religion in general and Christianity in particular, and would suggest that an education could go a long way towards resolving your frustration and negativity.

The crucifiction is the central event coupled with the Resurrection! The test is of faith in the belief in this event! While I see no need to argue whether or not he was crucified I do detest to the nature of the event as it is written in the bible! You can question my understanding of religion all you want (Desperate Measures and Conjecture) The crucifiction was a  horrible thing! It was justified by making up some ritual to cleanse us of (Original?) Sin! This is not a mis interpretation, it is a rejection. I learned not to trust the dramatic testimonies from delusional people! There are many that still believe that the sacrifice was for their Original sin.. which is not very clear in the bible! Many of these same people do not believe in The Garden of Eden story (The origin of Original sin) Why believe in a sacrifice for something that you don't think is real in the first place! Not to mention people cling to John 3;16 as if it holds a candle to the sacrifices made by the aposotles! Jesus had over 1000 rules laws or guidlines that you had to follow in order to achieve eternal life in heaven! Someone told me that before the final sacrifice people had to be in constant servitude to be with Jesus in the afterlife! You were completely devoted! But Now its easy just believe this magic story and you are saved.. Thats why alot of Christians aknowledge Jesus with their lips but deny him by their lifestyles!

As a person with an understanding of compassion (I'm assuming you are too) I could never tolerate that, with Hell involved, salvation being such a selective and convoluted process.  Some christians that I have met, only care about what Jesus had to say (Not the supernatural aspects of the bible) Which I completely promote whole heartedly!

Well, for Christians, Jesus and the whole "supernatural" thing kind of go hand in hand...seeing as he was God. ; )

Did I forget to mention my lack of interest in Jesus's claims to divinity! Unless in the perspective that Everything is God! The supernatural aspect is sensational but patterned after other fables, myths, folklore etc. When you look at Greek mythology, and norse mythology, and paganism, and american indian mythology, and Islam mythology, and mormon mythology, and scientology mythology and, Judeo Christian mythology, there are many similarities, Some are subtle and some more obvious but nonetheless these similarities are suggesting an existence of a god or many gods, or my god that houses all gods... either way stating "there is no God" It does not compute.. it is like dividing by zero, other similarities are dueling origin stories, and contradictive prophecies. These similarities have fundamental differences that cause conflict and stubborness to embrace the others point of view! We have seen what extreme cases produce but i'm not going to blame the entire mass for the acts of a few cells! But the most important similarity is the MAGIC..Fireballs and wizards and demons and sexy gods (Aphrodite) and the dead rising from the graves!

Jesus whether he was who he claimed to be was an extraordinary man (If the writings are true and not embellished/white washed)

They could whitewash the writings all they like, but the historical imact of the man and his teaching cannot be ignored.  No other person in history has had as profound an impact on the world as Jesus.

I agree accept for his role in the damnation of those who do not believe a silly story! I hate to pick and choose which Jesus to believe in but I am left with no choice, because of the irresponsible implications of the existance of said diety!

Following Jesus as an example it not revolting to me in the leaste! It is the rest of the overly interpreted, see what you want to see, hocus pocus that has no place in our world (Except next to the rest of the Mythological -Theological -Fantasy Literature) !

People who read the Bible and "see what you want to see" obviously don't have an understanding of what they're reading.

But it happens more often than naught! I would go as far as to say that only one person in my entire life has convinced me that he was living for the perfection of God and that was Jesus! Everyone else bury their heads in the sand waiting for Jesus to take them away from Gods Beautiful Creation!

Believing that people are going to hell is not a noble conviction, and I think that you may need to reflect on your own values and not treat your relationship with Jesus as an independant endeavor, or an excuse to have some kind of twisted justice! Whew!! I had to rant for a moment..

Christians, as a rule, don't think they're going to Hell...and don't believe those who reject Christ do so out of a "noble conviction."  As for the rest of your "rant"...sorry, haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

I'm saying that its not about you fool! Its about god.. Not Flood the earth God...but god! It is an illusion that you can ever be seperate from God! So if you truly believe in hell.. God is Hell, and God is in hell taking the form of a gazillion tortured souls! What is noble about that! When did I say christians think that they are going to hell? I reject the "neo christ" (Think jesus mixed with neo from the matrix) "Morel teachings Jesus" was a perfect example of humanty and should not be tarnished with accusations of being the catalyst for infinite torment!

To bring this to a close I will leave you with... If you are going to make extraordinary claims, and you actually care if I believe, then you have to have some extraordinary evidence!

But you believe in evolution and the Big Bang and global warming and string theory and think God is an insignificant "everywhere" particle...all with the meagerest smidge of "evidence," so why put the heavy lifting on religion?  Christianity, on the other hand, is supported by thousands of years of eyewitness testimony as well as physical and archaeological evidence.

First of all you made it clear that you don't understand pantheism, no need to beat a dead horse.. Second I never said I believed in the big bang and string theory, and global warming has never come up once in our lengthy debates. Evolution : Although there is a chance that evolution is a theory and not fact, it is recognized by very intellegent minds that the formula ends with evolution being the obvious answer, you mentioned in another post about new life popping up in existence, I couldn't imagine new life not adapting and mutating its way into existence! We see rapid examples of micro-evolution where species evolved within decades... Imaging Billions of years, its hard not to bend to the overwhelming possibility of life originating from single celled organisms and adapting according to there surroundings for thier survival.. In this process a heirarchy takes shape, one that is perfectly illustrated in museums where one species makes a leap forward in the evolutionary bloom! It is simly a mutation.. nothing magical, just the reality of how it works! Furthermore I never said that certain places names and events are not historical.. But that is not evidence for any of the supernatural claims of the bible!

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-17-2012
In reply to: deenasdad
Sun, 05-26-2013 - 2:08am

My understanding is that most christians want to promote christianity as a crucial element in human existence.

Yes, most Christians believe that the salvation of one's soul is somewhat crucial to our existence, both human and eternal.

I'm sure some could care less about the soul of another but my image of christianty is people spreading the gospel, sharing their God with others.

Many Christians don't evangelize, but if they're true to the tenets of their faith, they do care about others, body and soul, and share their faith by example.

Now I don't know what you saw or have been through, but I can't imagine that anyone would read the bible and think that it parallels reality and describes an unseen mysterious realm that is behind a veil of ummm "God Cloth".

Then you'd be seriously underestimating billions of Christians, Jews and Muslims for thousands of years.

I have had several instances where I have been presented with the option of having a relationship with these characters in a book, and I think "are you having a laugh"? It is something you can devote your entire life to and never find the universal "Truth"!

I'm not sure what characters you're referring to, but some people find their faith to be the only "truth" they need.

(Muslims, Jews, mormons, protestant, luther, catholic, evangelist,....) I am not interested in the thought of crucifiction (Although I will watch the ocasional "Saw" movie) or Hell, or the Devil, or Job, or Adam ,Eve, Noah, Jonah, Isaac, Abraham..... These things only help to remind us that "Life is just a test" and the horrible things in the world are justified through some devine equation that I don't think anyone truly understands! It all leaves such a bad taste in my mouth, I feel like you are selling me a turd sandwich, and getting mad at me for not liking it!

Crucifixion wasn't a test and the Bible doesn't offer "justification" for "horrible things in the world."  I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding, or outright ignorance, of religion in general and Christianity in particular, and would suggest that an education could go a long way towards resolving your frustration and negativity.

As a person with an understanding of compassion (I'm assuming you are too) I could never tolerate that, with Hell involved, salvation being such a selective and convoluted process.  Some christians that I have met, only care about what Jesus had to say (Not the supernatural aspects of the bible) Which I completely promote whole heartedly!

Well, for Christians, Jesus and the whole "supernatural" thing kind of go hand in hand...seeing as he was God. ; )

Jesus whether he was who he claimed to be was an extraordinary man (If the writings are true and not embellished/white washed)

They could whitewash the writings all they like, but the historical imact of the man and his teaching cannot be ignored.  No other person in history has had as profound an impact on the world as Jesus.

Following Jesus as an example it not revolting to me in the leaste! It is the rest of the overly interpreted, see what you want to see, hocus pocus that has no place in our world (Except next to the rest of the Mythological -Theological -Fantasy Literature) !

People who read the Bible and "see what you want to see" obviously don't have an understanding of what they're reading.

Believing that people are going to hell is not a noble conviction, and I think that you may need to reflect on your own values and not treat your relationship with Jesus as an independant endeavor, or an excuse to have some kind of twisted justice! Whew!! I had to rant for a moment..

Christians, as a rule, don't think they're going to Hell...and don't believe those who reject Christ do so out of a "noble conviction."  As for the rest of your "rant"...sorry, haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

To bring this to a close I will leave you with... If you are going to make extraordinary claims, and you actually care if I believe, then you have to have some extraordinary evidence!

But you believe in evolution and the Big Bang and global warming and string theory and think God is an insignificant "everywhere" particle...all with the meagerest smidge of "evidence," so why put the heavy lifting on religion?  Christianity, on the other hand, is supported by thousands of years of eyewitness testimony as well as physical and archaeological evidence.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-29-2012
In reply to: finalfan
Sun, 05-26-2013 - 1:08am

My understanding is that most christians want to promote christianity as a crucial element in human existence. I'm sure some could care less about the soul of another but my image of christianty is people spreading the gospel, sharing their God with others. Now I don't know what you saw or have been through, but I can't imagine that anyone would read the bible and think that it parallels reality and describes an unseen mysterious realm that is behind a veil of ummm "God Cloth". I have had several instances where I have been presented with the option of having a relationship with these characters in a book, and I think "are you having a laugh"? It is something you can devote your entire life to and never find the universal "Truth"! (Muslims, Jews, mormons, protestant, luther, catholic, evangelist,....) I am not interested in the thought of crucifiction (Although I will watch the ocasional "Saw" movie) or Hell, or the Devil, or Job, or Adam ,Eve, Noah, Jonah, Isaac, Abraham..... These things only help to remind us that "Life is just a test" and the horrible things in the world are justified through some devine equation that I don't think anyone truly understands! It all leaves such a bad taste in my mouth, I feel like you are selling me a turd sandwich, and getting mad at me for not liking it! As a person with an understanding of compassion (I'm assuming you are too) I could never tolerate that, with Hell involved, salvation being such a selective and convoluted process! Some christians that I have met, only care about what Jesus had to say (Not the supernatural aspects of the bible) Which I completely promote whole heartedly! Jesus whether he was who he claimed to be was an extraordinary man (If the writings are true and not embellished/white washed) Following Jesus as an example it not revolting to me in the leaste! It is the rest of the overly interpreted, see what you want to see, hocus pocus that has no place in our world (Except next to the rest of the Mythological -Theological -Fantasy Literature) ! Believing that people are going to hell is not a noble conviction, and I think that you may need to reflect on your own values and not treat your relationship with Jesus as an independant endeavor, or an excuse to have some kind of twisted justice! Whew!! I had to rant for a moment.. To bring this to a close I will leave you with... If you are going to make extraordinary claims, and you actually care if I believe, then you have to have some extraordinary evidence!

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-23-2001
In reply to: finalfan
Sat, 05-25-2013 - 12:25pm
I am just going to follow you around with nods of agreement deenasdad. A priest told me once to not get too caught up in the sinister nature of some books either, The book of Timothy is another strange one.

 


 


iVillage Member
Registered: 10-17-2012
In reply to: finalfan
Sat, 05-25-2013 - 3:34am

It's obviously difficult for some people to understand the value of having one's faith tested.  Like so many things...faith, friendship, loyalty, morality, etc...easy to espouse until you put them to the test.  And it wasn't God who tested Job...it was the Devil, so why get so peeved at God?