Sucks to be Gay

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-29-2012
Sucks to be Gay
12
Tue, 04-30-2013 - 4:50pm

I am like any straight guy in the world.. The thought of gay sex is, very disturbing! But that is because I am hetero! To the gays... im sure that straight sex is disturbing... But that is because they are GAY! Now I can see, from a christian perspective that gay marriage is an abomination, if you consider marriage to be a christian institution! But in what backwards reality can we proclaim gay sex to be illegal? Sure we don't want to see it.. but whose looking? Who would testify that they were subjected to witnessing a horrifying act of gay sex? Has anyone actually went to jail for homo eroticism? Does the government even pursue these offenders? Or is it like smoking cannibus.. as long as you do it in your own home, none will be the wiser? Have you ever heard of the word audacity? Don't you think we have had enough of our government over stepping their boundries? Last I checked they are there to serve us, not dictate our own personal lives, especially when we are hurting no one! So the next time you are offended by gay sex.. I will reccomend you stop watching gay porn!!

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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-17-2012
Wed, 05-01-2013 - 1:04am

Now I can see, from a christian perspective that gay marriage is an abomination, if you consider marriage to be a christian institution!

It's not a Christian institution, it's a cornerstone social institution, and undermining marriage but fracturing that cornerstone, undermines society.

But in what backwards reality can we proclaim gay sex to be illegal?

Homosexuality isn't illegal.

Sure we don't want to see it.. but whose looking?

Unfortunately, it's the pro-gay marriage crowd that is forcing us to look as they demand social parity and equality with traditional marriage and by pushing their social agenda down the throats of our school children.  If they simply shut up and kept their sexuality and lifestyle to themselves, no one would bother them.

Or is it like smoking cannibus.. as long as you do it in your own home, none will be the wiser?

Exactly.

Have you ever heard of the word audacity? Don't you think we have had enough of our government over stepping their boundries? Last I checked they are there to serve us, not dictate our own personal lives, especially when we are hurting no one!

As I said, if it were kept private no one would care.  Unfortunately, the pro-gay marriage crowd is trying to use the government and the courts to force social recognition and equality of their minority lifestyle, so it's kind of the opposite of the government "dictating our own personal lives."

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-29-2012
Wed, 05-01-2013 - 3:10am

Now I can see, from a christian perspective that gay marriage is an abomination, if you consider marriage to be a christian institution!

It's not a Christian institution, it's a cornerstone social institution, and undermining marriage but fracturing that cornerstone, undermines society.

Then it appears that "cornerstone" needs to be replaced! Slavery use to be a "cornerstone"! Society needs to be humbled! Liberty and Justice for All! Not just whomever you deem fit!

But in what backwards reality can we proclaim gay sex to be illegal?

Homosexuality isn't illegal.

Gay sex is illegal in Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas, and until recently Montana, where I am from!

Sure we don't want to see it.. but whose looking?

Unfortunately, it's the pro-gay marriage crowd that is forcing us to look as they demand social parity and equality with traditional marriage and by pushing their social agenda down the throats of our school children.  If they simply shut up and kept their sexuality and lifestyle to themselves, no one would bother them.

Yeah they look like the type of people who like to muffle there sexuality! (Sarcasm) I think that the reason that they flaunt it is because of the mental terrorism that comes from people who think that they are disgusting animals! They are reacting to a cruel society that has demeaned them for years! I don't want to see PDA of any kind! Schools have the distinct honor to usher in an era of tolerance! The same way they did during the intigration of color folk and whitey! 

Have you ever heard of the word audacity? Don't you think we have had enough of our government over stepping their boundries? Last I checked they are there to serve us, not dictate our own personal lives, especially when we are hurting no one!

As I said, if it were kept private no one would care.  Unfortunately, the pro-gay marriage crowd is trying to use the government and the courts to force social recognition and equality of their minority lifestyle, so it's kind of the opposite of the government "dictating our own personal lives."

They are simply adhearing the the beauracratic red tape! They are pushing to finally see a time where they are equal.. "They have a dream"! Its like quicksand.. the more you struggle the more sand gets all up in yo business! Frankly I think they are loving the attention.. So stop giving it to them!!

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-17-2012
Sun, 05-05-2013 - 1:38am

t's not a Christian institution, it's a cornerstone social institution, and undermining marriage but fracturing that cornerstone, undermines society.

Then it appears that "cornerstone" needs to be replaced!

Yes, by all means, let's toss out the single most important institution that's held society together for tens of thousands of years.  Good thinking.

Slavery use to be a "cornerstone"!

Slavery was never a cornerstone of society.

Society needs to be humbled! Liberty and Justice for All! Not just whomever you deem fit!

it's not society that needs to be humbled, it's the anything-goes-give-me-what-I-want-because-I-want-it liberal mentality that should be on the trash heep.

Homosexuality isn't illegal.

Gay sex is illegal in Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas, and until recently Montana, where I am from!

A lot of gays being arrested in Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas and Montana?  I hadn't heard.

Unfortunately, it's the pro-gay marriage crowd that is forcing us to look as they demand social parity and equality with traditional marriage and by pushing their social agenda down the throats of our school children.  If they simply shut up and kept their sexuality and lifestyle to themselves, no one would bother them.

Yeah they look like the type of people who like to muffle there sexuality! (Sarcasm) I think that the reason that they flaunt it is because of the mental terrorism that comes from people who think that they are disgusting animals! They are reacting to a cruel society that has demeaned them for years! I don't want to see PDA of any kind! Schools have the distinct honor to usher in an era of tolerance! The same way they did during the intigration of color folk and whitey! 

I guess the old addage "you reap what you sow" is applicable here.  Maybe the pro-gay marriage crowd should act in less of a knee-jerk manner.

As I said, if it were kept private no one would care.  Unfortunately, the pro-gay marriage crowd is trying to use the government and the courts to force social recognition and equality of their minority lifestyle, so it's kind of the opposite of the government "dictating our own personal lives."

They are simply adhearing the the beauracratic red tape! They are pushing to finally see a time where they are equal.. "They have a dream"! Its like quicksand.. the more you struggle the more sand gets all up in yo business! Frankly I think they are loving the attention.. So stop giving it to them!!

They're tough to ignore when they go ranting about and the media promotes it.  As for "pushing to finally see a time where they are equal"...I hear the pro-polygamy is salavating at the prospect.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-29-2012
Tue, 05-07-2013 - 5:45pm

Yes, by all means, let's toss out the single most important institution that's held society together for tens of thousands of years.  Good thinking.

You are assuming that society wouldn't press forward without it! I am in the process of planning a wedding.. It is horrifying! It is a billion dollar industry that preys on the dreams of little girls! At one point I'm sure it was very important to maintain the family system and control STDs, but now we are just filling the pockets of the cake designers and flower shops!

Slavery was never a cornerstone of society.

Actually it was! It was the cornerstone in alot of societies (Pyramids) Many would argue that slavery and beer were two catalysts that made our country Great! The reason I brought it up is because just like slavery... things Change!!

it's not society that needs to be humbled, it's the anything-goes-give-me-what-I-want-because-I-want-it liberal mentality that should be on the trash heep.

But don't you WANT to stop them from marrying? Isn't it YOUR opinion that you are enforcing? Both sides WANT their ideals to be apart of our society! But the gays are defending their rights against you! Not vice versa!

Homosexuality isn't illegal.

A lot of gays being arrested in Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas and Montana?  I hadn't heard.

That was my opening argument! Who is watching these people having sex? Is it a law that can even be enforced? It just goes to show that some laws were put in place because people were bored and wanted to make a bunch of laws!

I guess the old addage "you reap what you sow" is applicable here.  Maybe the pro-gay marriage crowd should act in less of a knee-jerk manner.

Like I said.. They are reacting to an injustice.. They have every right to persue their freedoms! Just because they are different than you doesn't mean they don't deserve the same freedoms that you enjoy!

They're tough to ignore when they go ranting about and the media promotes it.  As for "pushing to finally see a time where they are equal"...I hear the pro-polygamy is salavating at the prospect.

Who cares! If there is a women bent enough to join a polygamist marriage.. then so be it! Why do you think it is up to you who can marry? You only assume that you can speak for them.. but from my perspective you look like a bully!

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-17-2012
Wed, 05-08-2013 - 3:57am

Yes, by all means, let's toss out the single most important institution that's held society together for tens of thousands of years.  Good thinking.

You are assuming that society wouldn't press forward without it!

The degredation of the institution of marriage and the nuclear family is the cause of MANY of society's greatest woes.

I am in the process of planning a wedding.. It is horrifying! It is a billion dollar industry that preys on the dreams of little girls!

Blame the little girls who dream, not the industry that cater's to them.

At one point I'm sure it was very important to maintain the family system and control STDs, but now we are just filling the pockets of the cake designers and flower shops!

Making the event "special" and wrapping it in "ceremony" gives it personal value and social "weight."  Exactly the same reason that Kings aren't just handed a crown or President's inaugurated with a "howdy-do."

Slavery was never a cornerstone of society.

Actually it was! It was the cornerstone in alot of societies (Pyramids)

There is a LOT of historic conjecture as to whether the Pyramids were built with slave labor or simply "national" labor.  And no, while slavery was an important economic institution, it was NOT a "cornerstone of society."

Many would argue that slavery and beer were two catalysts that made our country Great! The reason I brought it up is because just like slavery... things Change!!

Beer was invented many, many hundreds or thousands of years before, so there is no evidence that it is a major contributer, let alone a cornerstone, of our society.  Btw, beer is still here, so gay marriage is a no-go.

it's not society that needs to be humbled, it's the anything-goes-give-me-what-I-want-because-I-want-it liberal mentality that should be on the trash heep.

But don't you WANT to stop them from marrying? Isn't it YOUR opinion that you are enforcing? Both sides WANT their ideals to be apart of our society! But the gays are defending their rights against you! Not vice versa!

Yes, stop them from "marrying" but not stop them from "joining" is some socially acceptable legally equivalent fashion.  And boo-hoo, not every minority gets their pecadillos foisted on society.

Homosexuality isn't illegal.

A lot of gays being arrested in Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas and Montana?  I hadn't heard.

That was my opening argument! Who is watching these people having sex? Is it a law that can even be enforced? It just goes to show that some laws were put in place because people were bored and wanted to make a bunch of laws!

Or it was a law that was intended to intimidate behavior...like speeding through a stop sign.

I guess the old addage "you reap what you sow" is applicable here.  Maybe the pro-gay marriage crowd should act in less of a knee-jerk manner.

Like I said.. They are reacting to an injustice.. They have every right to persue their freedoms! Just because they are different than you doesn't mean they don't deserve the same freedoms that you enjoy!

I'm sure NAMBLA and the polygamists appreciate your support...after all, they're just "persuing their freedoms!  Just because they are different than you doesn't mean they don't deserve the same freedoms that you enjoy."

They're tough to ignore when they go ranting about and the media promotes it.  As for "pushing to finally see a time where they are equal"...I hear the pro-polygamy is salavating at the prospect.

Who cares! If there is a women bent enough to join a polygamist marriage.. then so be it! Why do you think it is up to you who can marry? You only assume that you can speak for them.. but from my perspective you look like a bully!

It's up to society to determine the morals and values of society, not the deviants who live amongst it."  Btw, unless you're an "anything goes"...and that means ANYTHING...then it you who's a bully...as well as a hyoocrite for placing limitations on people's freedoms.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-29-2012
Wed, 05-08-2013 - 5:00pm

The degredation of the institution of marriage and the nuclear family is the cause of MANY of society's greatest woes.

In your opinion maybe.. but in reality it is all in your head! I'm assuming you have a happy marriage with a nice family... so why are you so concerned about what other people do, it truly doesn't affect you at all!

Blame the little girls who dream, not the industry that cater's to them.

So you blame them for falling into societies pitfalls even though they are unaware that they are following the "light"! You give to much power to "free will"! When you factor in all of the natural laws and the boundaries in which human behavior is bound to! Not alot of decisions are made with an enlightened clarity involved!

Making the event "special" and wrapping it in "ceremony" gives it personal value and social "weight."  Exactly the same reason that Kings aren't just handed a crown or President's inaugurated with a "howdy-do."

I agree with you and see your point.. however it doesn't mean its a good thing! Giving power to something that would otherwise be some what of a banality is all apart of our imagination! Truly those things hold no real value unless it promotes our survival! I am not expecting weddings to stop being a money grubbing industry.. but I can dream!

There is a LOT of historic conjecture as to whether the Pyramids were built with slave labor or simply "national" labor.  And no, while slavery was an important economic institution, it was NOT a "cornerstone of society."

So it had to be aliens then that built the pyramids! No man in his right mind would agree to a project of that magnitude! Especially just to stroke the ego of the pharos! While the pyramids are a testament to human will.. I think we can get by without them... im sure plent of people that worked on it would agree! Also you are gonna have to tell me your definition of "cornerstone" because without slavery our country would not be the alpha dog it is today!

Beer was invented many, many hundreds or thousands of years before, so there is no evidence that it is a major contributer, let alone a cornerstone, of our society.  Btw, beer is still here, so gay marriage is a no-go.

It was a cornerstone of early civilizations that helped pave the way for societies as we know it! We learned during prohibition the importance of a free market society that is not controlled by the black market (Marijuana is now the cash crop of the underground) Just because beer has survived this long despite its viloent and irresponsible affect on humans!   The resilience of alcohol should not be an argument against gay marriage, in fact Beer is far more detrimental to any society than marriage of any kind!

Yes, stop them from "marrying" but not stop them from "joining" is some socially acceptable legally equivalent fashion.  And boo-hoo, not every minority gets their pecadillos foisted on society.

But most do... that is why it is unfair to allow other minorities their rights without giving the same courtesy to the minorities that you might not agree with!  My policy is that unless you are effecting the rights of others.. No government or social group can tell you what to do!

Or it was a law that was intended to intimidate behavior...like speeding through a stop sign.

Not speeding through a stop sign is completely different than illegal gay sex! Speeding through a stop sign has proven to be harmful unlike being gay!

It's up to society to determine the morals and values of society, not the deviants who live amongst it."  Btw, unless you're an "anything goes"...and that means ANYTHING...then it you who's a bully...as well as a hyoocrite for placing limitations on people's freedoms.

I agree unless you are up your own arse about it! The problem is the people who you are reffering to as "deviants" Are tax paying law abiding human beings who propably think that you are deviant and want to shut down the things that you love! If you want to live in a society that dictates our personal lives you are in the wrong country! If our country continues to bully the gays then anyone that enables this behavior is technically involved in a hate crime! Yeah I can see how wanting everyone to have equal rights makes me a bully!

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-17-2012
Sun, 05-12-2013 - 7:23am

The degredation of the institution of marriage and the nuclear family is the cause of MANY of society's greatest woes.

In your opinion maybe.. but in reality it is all in your head! I'm assuming you have a happy marriage with a nice family... so why are you so concerned about what other people do, it truly doesn't affect you at all!

Well, you're wrong on both counts.  There are studies that prove the degredation of marriage has had a serious negative impact on society...whether it be the gross increase in single-motherhood, the disintegration of the black family, or the promotion of "alternative" lifestyles...which leads to increases in crime, taxes, etc.  And what impacts negatively on society impacts me and my family.

Blame the little girls who dream, not the industry that cater's to them.

So you blame them for falling into societies pitfalls even though they are unaware that they are following the "light"! You give to much power to "free will"! When you factor in all of the natural laws and the boundaries in which human behavior is bound to! Not alot of decisions are made with an enlightened clarity involved!

Yes, where one has "free will" I do give "power" to "free will."  And as one does not have the power to predict the future, one can only be as "enlightened" as the present circumstances allow.

Making the event "special" and wrapping it in "ceremony" gives it personal value and social "weight."  Exactly the same reason that Kings aren't just handed a crown or President's inaugurated with a "howdy-do."

I agree with you and see your point.. however it doesn't mean its a good thing! Giving power to something that would otherwise be some what of a banality is all apart of our imagination! Truly those things hold no real value unless it promotes our survival! I am not expecting weddings to stop being a money grubbing industry.. but I can dream!

And I'm afraid you're wrong again.  There is a reason that "pagentry" is afforded solemn occasions.  That "ceremony" gives social weight to the institution itself.  People are less likely to simply throw off the bonds of marriage that are so personally and socially recognized...and society itself is less likely to accept that dismissal when it was so solemnly recognized.  These things hols EMENSE value to the individual and society itself, and precisely the reason that such ceremony was afforded them in the first place.  As for "weddings" themselves, then can be as simple or as extravagant as the couple/family wishes.  They are a demonstration of ego, intent and social standing...again demonstrating their "weight" in society.

There is a LOT of historic conjecture as to whether the Pyramids were built with slave labor or simply "national" labor.  And no, while slavery was an important economic institution, it was NOT a "cornerstone of society."

So it had to be aliens then that built the pyramids! No man in his right mind would agree to a project of that magnitude! Especially just to stroke the ego of the pharos! While the pyramids are a testament to human will.. I think we can get by without them... im sure plent of people that worked on it would agree! Also you are gonna have to tell me your definition of "cornerstone" because without slavery our country would not be the alpha dog it is today!

The Pyramids are a testament to the ingenuity, creativity and greatness of man...as is Stonehenge and the Lighthouse of Alexandria and the Mo'ai of Easter Island...and people would "sign on" because they believed in the project, or simply for employment...something we're sadly experiencing today, thanks to Obama and the Democrats ineptitude.  Could we get by without these magnificent monuments?  I say not...they speak to the "grace" of man.

As for slavery...you're mistaken yet again.  Color me surprised.  Slavery was an economic institution with a long, long, long history...it was NOT a social "cornerstone."  It was a mainstay of the south, and so it was disposed of with great reluctance...but as history as shown us, the south did, indeed, survive and flourish without slavery, as did the rest of the nation.

Beer was invented many, many hundreds or thousands of years before, so there is no evidence that it is a major contributer, let alone a cornerstone, of our society.  Btw, beer is still here, so gay marriage is a no-go.

It was a cornerstone of early civilizations that helped pave the way for societies as we know it! We learned during prohibition the importance of a free market society that is not controlled by the black market (Marijuana is now the cash crop of the underground) Just because beer has survived this long despite its viloent and irresponsible affect on humans!   The resilience of alcohol should not be an argument against gay marriage, in fact Beer is far more detrimental to any society than marriage of any kind!

No, slavery was not a "cornerstone" of any ancient society, as evidenced by it's eradication and the continued success of that society.  Slavery is an economic institution that, when removed, only requires the replacement of the workforce, usually an eager proposition, and an increase in product costs.

Yes, stop them from "marrying" but not stop them from "joining" is some socially acceptable legally equivalent fashion.  And boo-hoo, not every minority gets their pecadillos foisted on society.

But most do... that is why it is unfair to allow other minorities their rights without giving the same courtesy to the minorities that you might not agree with!  My policy is that unless you are effecting the rights of others.. No government or social group can tell you what to do!

Actually, most do not...to the laments of NAMBLA, polygamists, nudists and advocates of Sharia Law everywhere.  And when certain "acceptance" of minority "rights" is permitted, rarely does it infringe, or actually RE-DEFINE, the social institutions of the majority...against their will.

Or it was a law that was intended to intimidate behavior...like speeding through a stop sign.

Not speeding through a stop sign is completely different than illegal gay sex! Speeding through a stop sign has proven to be harmful unlike being gay!

History differs.  Every society and culture throughout history has deemed homosexuality to be a detriment.  Is ten thousand years of history and culture wrong, based on the wisdom of the uninformed voter today?

It's up to society to determine the morals and values of society, not the deviants who live amongst it."  Btw, unless you're an "anything goes"...and that means ANYTHING...then it you who's a bully...as well as a hyoocrite for placing limitations on people's freedoms.

I agree unless you are up your own arse about it! The problem is the people who you are reffering to as "deviants" Are tax paying law abiding human beings who propably think that you are deviant and want to shut down the things that you love! If you want to live in a society that dictates our personal lives you are in the wrong country! If our country continues to bully the gays then anyone that enables this behavior is technically involved in a hate crime! Yeah I can see how wanting everyone to have equal rights makes me a bully!

Society operates on an understand of law and justice and values, irrespective of what may be "law" and what may be not.  Despite what the liberlas say, our country was, indeed, founded upon the principal of Judeo-Christian laws and teaching.  Deny that and you deny the people.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-29-2012
Mon, 05-13-2013 - 4:42pm

Well, you're wrong on both counts.  There are studies that prove the degredation of marriage has had a serious negative impact on society...whether it be the gross increase in single-motherhood, the disintegration of the black family, or the promotion of "alternative" lifestyles...which leads to increases in crime, taxes, etc.  And what impacts negatively on society impacts me and my family.

Just so we are on the same page here... beggining your debate with "Your wrong" is a little redundant! The concept that you don't agree is not lost on me! Moving on! I agree that the degradation of marriage is a very serious problem to the "old ways"! What I am proposing is that it needs to evolve because the REAL problem comes fro resisting that change! I'm sure you are fully aware of Newton and his wonderful laws! The same applys to this case! Your answer to the imovable object is to violently chip away at it! My proposal is let it stay! It will be among the many imovable objects that should remain like human rights (African American Rights, Women Rights, Immigrant rights.. etc) These are all imovable forces that when you try to destoy it... it proves its dominance over you!

Yes, where one has "free will" I do give "power" to "free will."  And as one does not have the power to predict the future, one can only be as "enlightened" as the present circumstances allow.

I'm not saying free will doesn't exist.. I'm saying that there are far more powerful forces out there like ignorance and self destruction! We all have the capacity to choose... but it is within several limitations including physical and mental health, We all know the "weak link theory" From what I can tell this world has more weak links than naught! If you think yourself a sturdy steel link... just know that you are the minority and at any given moment your resolve can be shattered and you will become one of the many destroyers of this world! Before I start to sound High and Mighty... I will proclaim my resolve has been compromised many of times! (and of course I like to think of myself as a part of the Chain)

And I'm afraid you're wrong again.  There is a reason that "pagentry" is afforded solemn occasions.  That "ceremony" gives social weight to the institution itself.  People are less likely to simply throw off the bonds of marriage that are so personally and socially recognized...and society itself is less likely to accept that dismissal when it was so solemnly recognized.  These things hols EMENSE value to the individual and society itself, and precisely the reason that such ceremony was afforded them in the first place.  As for "weddings" themselves, then can be as simple or as extravagant as the couple/family wishes.  They are a demonstration of ego, intent and social standing...again demonstrating their "weight" in society.

I will let you have that one... mostly because i'm a little too close to it right now in the middle of planning this wedding! I might be a lttle bit frustrated with money, but I made this choice (Love is expensive :) so I sound pretty stupid trying to prove its worthlesness!

The Pyramids are a testament to the ingenuity, creativity and greatness of man...as is Stonehenge and the Lighthouse of Alexandria and the Mo'ai of Easter Island...and people would "sign on" because they believed in the project, or simply for employment...something we're sadly experiencing today, thanks to Obama and the Democrats ineptitude.  Could we get by without these magnificent monuments?  I say not...they speak to the "grace" of man.

I'm telling you.. Romanticize it all you want.. It was the worldly equivelant to the place you call hell! The Pharos and Kings during those times did not require a sign up sheet! Being employed may have kept them alive but it was hardly a life worth living! Like I said before as much as the pyramids fascinate me and illustrate the capabilities of man, I can think of far better projects that actually serve a purpose!

As for slavery...you're mistaken yet again.  Color me surprised.  Slavery was an economic institution with a long, long, long history...it was NOT a social "cornerstone."  It was a mainstay of the south, and so it was disposed of with great reluctance...but as history as shown us, the south did, indeed, survive and flourish without slavery, as did the rest of the nation.

The cornerstone (or foundation stone) concept is derived from the first stone set in the construction of a masonry foundation, important since all other stones will be set in reference to this stone, thus determining the position of the entire structure.

If we are gonna use the word "cornerstone" as a metaphore... I am very comfortable calling slavery a cornerstone! It was a part of the very foundation of this country! Ask any farmer or rancher during that time! Or ask any farmer today if they believe we should look into rebuilding with slavery as a cornerstone again!

No, slavery was not a "cornerstone" of any ancient society, as evidenced by it's eradication and the continued success of that society.  Slavery is an economic institution that, when removed, only requires the replacement of the workforce, usually an eager proposition, and an increase in product costs.

My position was that cornerstones can be replaced! Gay marriage should be a cornerstone that replaces the barbaric foundation that people like you have been fighting to keep in place! It is wrong pure and simple... Just like slavery!

Actually, most do not...to the laments of NAMBLA, polygamists, nudists and advocates of Sharia Law everywhere.  And when certain "acceptance" of minority "rights" is permitted, rarely does it infringe, or actually RE-DEFINE, the social institutions of the majority...against their will.

Humor me here! Lets say gay rights are enforced and homo sexuals are permisted to get married... Whooop de doo! It is pure malicous Dogma that even puts it in your head that it is a bad thing! Nothing would really change! If you really think marriage is a stable machine without the gays being involved.. you obviously haven't seen the divorce rates! As I have implied...your the problem here, not the gays! So compare the rights of a wealthy ,caucasion, straight ,male to the rights of a poor, african american, lesbian! "Land of the Free" "All men are created equal"? PFFB (That was me making a rasberry)

History differs.  Every society and culture throughout history has deemed homosexuality to be a detriment.  Is ten thousand years of history and culture wrong, based on the wisdom of the uninformed voter today?

Yes exactly! Dead Wrong! When you look back at our history.. do you really think "Now theres a peacful bunch"! No they were savages.. Monkeys flinging crap at each other! I like to think we have evolved with the help of studying history by leaning its pitfalls! One of those pitfalls that is apparent throughout all of history is the cruel intolerance for minorities and the tyrrany of any man who thinks the rest of the world needs to line up behind his "Vision" for the structure of civilization!

Society operates on an understand of law and justice and values, irrespective of what may be "law" and what may be not.  Despite what the liberlas say, our country was, indeed, founded upon the principal of Judeo-Christian laws and teaching.  Deny that and you deny the people.

Just for fun i'm going to proclaim "Your wrong" Many of our founding fathers were very vocal about their views on Judeo-Christianity!

Our Founding Fathers on ReligionThomas Jefferson

"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object." 
..........To W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819

"The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of twoclasses: fools and hypocrites."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and state. 
..........Letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, January 1, 1802

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, 'a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;' the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

"When we see religion split into so many thousands of sects, and I may say Christianity itself divided into it's thousands also, who are disputing, anathematizing, and where the laws permit, burning and torturing one another for abstractions which no one of them understand, and which are indeed beyond the comprehension of the human mind, into which of the chambers of this Bedlam would a man wish to thrust himself. The sum of all religion as expressed by it's best preacher, 'fear god and love thy neighbor,' contains 
no mystery, needs no explanation - but this wont do. It gives no scope to make dupes; priests could not live by it." 
..........Letter to George Logan, November 12, 1816

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." 
..........To Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." 
.........."Notes on Virginia"

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." 
..........To Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." 
..........To John Adams, 1803

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." 
..........To S. Kercheval, 1810

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." 
..........To Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." 
..........To Carey, 1816

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it. Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore him to the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus." 
..........To W. Short, 1820

"The office of reformer of the superstitions of a nation, is ever more dangerous. Jesus had to work on the perilous confines of reason and religion; and a step to the right or left might place him within the grasp of the priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore." 
..........To Story, Aug. 4, 1820

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin. 
1. That there are three Gods. 
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing. 
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith. 
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use. 
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save." 
..........To Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822

"Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a slaughter-house." 
..........To Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822

"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." 
..........To John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823

"The metaphysical insanities of Athanasius, of Loyola, and of Calvin, are, to my understanding, mere lapses into polytheism, differing from paganism only by being more unintelligible." 
..........To Jared Sparks, 1820

John Adams

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" 
..........To F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" 
..........To Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." 
..........To John Taylor

Abraham Lincoln

"The bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."

Benjamin Franklin 
  
"The nearest I can make it out, 'Love your enemies' means, 'Hate your Friends'."

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. 
-- Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."

"As to Jesus of Nazareth...I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity."

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." 
..........Letter to his father, 1738

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." 
.........."Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." 
..........Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

James Madison

"Every new and successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance" 
..........James Madison, 1822, Writings, 9:101

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history" 
..........James Madison, undated, William and Mary Quarterly, 1946, 3:555

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." 
.........."A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." 
..........."A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"The appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, [is] contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment'" 
..........James Madison, 1811, Writings, 8:133

Thomas Paine 

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance."

"The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-17-2012
Thu, 05-16-2013 - 4:59am

Just so we are on the same page here... beggining your debate with "Your wrong" is a little redundant!

I was hoping to start with "you're right and I agree"...unfortunately you were wrong, so...  ; )

I agree that the degradation of marriage is a very serious problem to the "old ways"! What I am proposing is that it needs to evolve because the REAL problem comes fro resisting that change!

Not degrading to the "old ways" to the foundations of TODAY'S society...hence many of the social problems we've been experiencing.

I'm sure you are fully aware of Newton and his wonderful laws! The same applys to this case! Your answer to the imovable object is to violently chip away at it! My proposal is let it stay! It will be among the many imovable objects that should remain like human rights (African American Rights, Women Rights, Immigrant rights.. etc) These are all imovable forces that when you try to destoy it... it proves its dominance over you!

Actually, there was nothing immovable about African American Rights, they were influx 100 years before the Civil War...or women's rights...or immigrant rights...but the way liberals responded only further oppressed the aforementioned groups and keep them in a state of perpetual servitude to the "powers that be."

Yes, where one has "free will" I do give "power" to "free will."  And as one does not have the power to predict the future, one can only be as "enlightened" as the present circumstances allow.

I'm not saying free will doesn't exist.. I'm saying that there are far more powerful forces out there like ignorance and self destruction! We all have the capacity to choose... but it is within several limitations including physical and mental health, We all know the "weak link theory" From what I can tell this world has more weak links than naught!

Hence Obama's election.


And I'm afraid you're wrong again.  There is a reason that "pagentry" is afforded solemn occasions.  That "ceremony" gives social weight to the institution itself.  People are less likely to simply throw off the bonds of marriage that are so personally and socially recognized...and society itself is less likely to accept that dismissal when it was so solemnly recognized.  These things hols EMENSE value to the individual and society itself, and precisely the reason that such ceremony was afforded them in the first place.  As for "weddings" themselves, then can be as simple or as extravagant as the couple/family wishes.  They are a demonstration of ego, intent and social standing...again demonstrating their "weight" in society.

I will let you have that one... mostly because i'm a little too close to it right now in the middle of planning this wedding! I might be a lttle bit frustrated with money, but I made this choice (Love is expensive :) so I sound pretty stupid trying to prove its worthlesness!

As I said, not worthless at all.  It provides "solemnity" to the occasion, which does have a personal and social impact.  Still, the expense can be mitigated by creativity.  Inexpensive doesn't have to be "cheap."


The Pyramids are a testament to the ingenuity, creativity and greatness of man...as is Stonehenge and the Lighthouse of Alexandria and the Mo'ai of Easter Island...and people would "sign on" because they believed in the project, or simply for employment...something we're sadly experiencing today, thanks to Obama and the Democrats ineptitude.  Could we get by without these magnificent monuments?  I say not...they speak to the "grace" of man.

I'm telling you.. Romanticize it all you want.. It was the worldly equivelant to the place you call hell!

Or perhaps the equivalent of the place I call "work"...because EVERYWHERE in that place and time was a place I would now call "hell."


The Pharos and Kings during those times did not require a sign up sheet!

We don't know that.  Employment for social projects may have been voluntary or compulsory, we simply don't know.  But it should be mentioned that many things, like military service, were compulsatory and not deemed "oppressive."


Being employed may have kept them alive but it was hardly a life worth living! Like I said before as much as the pyramids fascinate me and illustrate the capabilities of man, I can think of far better projects that actually serve a purpose!

All of the aforementioned projects were national projects and would have brought glory, and money, to the local economy...much as a local bridge or museum does today, but on a larger level.  They were probably percieved as a good thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      

As for slavery...you're mistaken yet again.  Color me surprised.  Slavery was an economic institution with a long, long, long history...it was NOT a social "cornerstone."  It was a mainstay of the south, and so it was disposed of with great reluctance...but as history as shown us, the south did, indeed, survive and flourish without slavery, as did the rest of the nation.

The cornerstone (or foundation stone) concept is derived from the first stone set in the construction of a masonry foundation, important since all other stones will be set in reference to this stone, thus determining the position of the entire structure.

And I would contend that slavery wasn't a cornerstone of southern society, but it was, admittedly, an important economic instituiton.


If we are gonna use the word "cornerstone" as a metaphore... I am very comfortable calling slavery a cornerstone! It was a part of the very foundation of this country! Ask any farmer or rancher during that time! Or ask any farmer today if they believe we should look into rebuilding with slavery as a cornerstone again!

Many things were a part of the foundation of this country, but considering the establishing colonies at Plymouth and Jamestown, slavery could hardly be considered a "cornerstone."  And if one only focuses on the "founding" as relating to the 1770s-1790s again, the "3/5ths of a person" codicile puts a chink in the notion that slavery was, in any form, a "cornerstone" of our "founding."


No, slavery was not a "cornerstone" of any ancient society, as evidenced by it's eradication and the continued success of that society.  Slavery is an economic institution that, when removed, only requires the replacement of the workforce, usually an eager proposition, and an increase in product costs.

My position was that cornerstones can be replaced! Gay marriage should be a cornerstone that replaces the barbaric foundation that people like you have been fighting to keep in place! It is wrong pure and simple... Just like slavery!

And you're wrong...quelle surprise...unless you want to bring about the collapse of the society they were supporting.  Gay marriage should be opposed because it contradicts the fundamental family unit and lies to give equality to the "union" of homsexuals with heterosexuals. It's acceptance leads to the degradation of society, hence the aggressive onslaught to redefine what the definition of "family" is and to redefine social "vallues."


Actually, most do not...to the laments of NAMBLA, polygamists, nudists and advocates of Sharia Law everywhere.  And when certain "acceptance" of minority "rights" is permitted, rarely does it infringe, or actually RE-DEFINE, the social institutions of the majority...against their will.

Humor me here! Lets say gay rights are enforced and homo sexuals are permisted to get married... Whooop de doo! It is pure malicous Dogma that even puts it in your head that it is a bad thing! Nothing would really change!

Deviance is not nothing.  The redefinition of marriage and all that it entails is not nothing.  It makes the "family unit" nothing and undefinable."  It gives sperm-doners the right to walk away...it gives women the right to kill their children...it gives homosexuals the parity with heterosexual couples...it gives polygamists and dog-lovers parity with traditional marriage.  Nothing would change, indeed.


If you really think marriage is a stable machine without the gays being involved.. you obviously haven't seen the divorce rates!

Lots of gays getting divorced in states that don't recognize gay marriage?


As I have implied...your the problem here, not the gays!

And the problem here is not the polygamists either...or the pedophiles, after all, they're just misunderstood...or the animal-lovers, who only want to love their pets and leave them their "fortunes."   No problem at all...in YOUR anything-goes-world.


So compare the rights of a wealthy ,caucasion, straight ,male to the rights of a poor, african american, lesbian! "Land of the Free" "All men are created equal"? PFFB (That was me making a rasberry)

What a crock.  Compare the rights of a wealthy, caucasion, straight male to the rights of a wealthy, black, straight male and you'll find perfect equity.  Make that "woman" or "gay" if you like that you'll still arrive at the same equation.  Our Founding Fathers never imagined that "all men are equated equal" to "any deviance or pecadillo goes."  So if you're interesting in starting "bizarro-nation" find someplace else to plant your roots.


History differs.  Every society and culture throughout history has deemed homosexuality to be a detriment.  Is ten thousand years of history and culture wrong, based on the wisdom of the uninformed voter today?

Yes exactly! Dead Wrong! When you look back at our history.. do you really think "Now theres a peacful bunch"! No they were savages.. Monkeys flinging crap at each other!

Yes, Greece and Rome are often thought of as 'monkeys flinging crap at each other"...it you're an ignorant liberal.  Intelligent people might consider them the burgeoning of civilization.


I like to think we have evolved with the help of studying history by leaning its pitfalls! One of those pitfalls that is apparent throughout all of history is the cruel intolerance for minorities and the tyrrany of any man who thinks the rest of the world needs to line up behind his "Vision" for the structure of civilization!

What you've evolved into is an ignorant group of "anything-goes-anarchist-hypocrites" without a clue of thousands of years of social history and no insight into the future.  Congrats...you'll soon reap what you've sown...and, unfortunately, so will the rest of us.


Society operates on an understand of law and justice and values, irrespective of what may be "law" and what may be not.  Despite what the liberlas say, our country was, indeed, founded upon the principal of Judeo-Christian laws and teaching.  Deny that and you deny the people.

Just for fun i'm going to proclaim "Your wrong" Many of our founding fathers were very vocal about their views on Judeo-Christianity!


Right...and all, if not most, were staunch believers in Christianity.  Try looking at their actual writings and their actual lives instead of excerpts from haters.  Our Founding Fathers, from Washington to Jefferson to Adams to ALL of the lesser known figures...were ALL staunch believers in GOD...with a capital "G"...and felt his guiding hand.  Shame on those who deny him...and their wisdom.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-29-2012
Sun, 05-19-2013 - 3:00am

I was hoping to start with "you're right and I agree"...unfortunately you were wrong, so...  ; )

Thats a little arrogant but I'll let it pass because I am quite arrogant myself! Just thought i'd let you in on my observations and debate etiquette!  "I disgree" was what you meant to say ;)

Not degrading to the "old ways" to the foundations of TODAY'S society...hence many of the social problems we've been experiencing.

Umm not seeing it! What exactly does gay marriage degrade? If a group of grannys want to join a tour group called the "Hells Angels" Doesn't mean they are dangerous! So if a gay person wants to be concidered joined in holy matrimony.. Freaking let them... because you will be thinking "Sticking feathers up your but doesn't make them a chicken anyway" I am saying you give too much power to an Invention! A social tool used for survival! Now if everyone became gay thats bad... We can cross that bridge later Stud Muffin! haha

Actually, there was nothing immovable about African American Rights, they were influx 100 years before the Civil War...or women's rights...or immigrant rights...but the way liberals responded only further oppressed the aforementioned groups and keep them in a state of perpetual servitude to the "powers that be."

So then you know that this struggle will go on for years to come with the same ignorant pace as the former attrocities! BTW I get it! Your a Conservative Fundamentalist Christian amd very proud of it! I'm not arguing against a Republican or a Christian... I'm arguing against You who represents another black mark in our intollerant, hateful, egocentric, "Christian" History!

Or perhaps the equivalent of the place I call "work"...because EVERYWHERE in that place and time was a place I would now call "hell."

Yeah because they live in a freaking dessert! Apparently dessert heat causes people to become very manipulatable! The pharos were sociopaths on a grand scale! I don't care how much anyone wants thier legacy to last! It was basically the largest scam in history if it didn't involve slavery because Cruel and unusal was all that was on the menu for the "Employees"

The Pharos and Kings during those times did not require a sign up sheet!

We don't know that.  Employment for social projects may have been voluntary or compulsory, we simply don't know.  But it should be mentioned that many things, like military service, were compulsatory and not deemed "oppressive."

I wasn't there and i'm sure alot of things I don't understand has something to do with survival.. Either way its conjecture.. however  denying that slavery built the pyramids is actually very disrespectful to the slaves that built them! I find it very easy to envision the Pharos firm grasp on the fragile minds of the servants! Not alot of choice back then!

                                                                                                                                                                                                          

As for slavery...you're mistaken yet again.  Color me surprised.  Slavery was an economic institution with a long, long, long history...it was NOT a social "cornerstone."  It was a mainstay of the south, and so it was disposed of with great reluctance...but as history as shown us, the south did, indeed, survive and flourish without slavery, as did the rest of the nation.

I guess I have a broader sense of the word "cornerstone" because we are not on the same page here! It sounds like you agree and disagree with me depending on when in our histrory! When Washingtone came over had the revolution.. independence blah blah Slaves were extremely important in the foundation of this nation! So much so that I would deem it a cornerstone! You keep mentioning around the civil war era where that "cornerstone" was being torn out of our foundation and replaced by Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods!

And you're wrong...quelle surprise...unless you want to bring about the collapse of the society they were supporting.  Gay marriage should be opposed because it contradicts the fundamental family unit and lies to give equality to the "union" of homsexuals with heterosexuals. It's acceptance leads to the degradation of society, hence the aggressive onslaught to redefine what the definition of "family" is and to redefine social "vallues."

Or you are homophobic and have proven your loyalty to dogmatic illussions! I have no clue what your seeing because I am not that offended by everyone having the same rights! I think I understand a little if I relate it to Orwells absolute government! Where if they say 2+2=5 then you damn well better believe 5 is the answer! So you are saying "I'm sticking with 4 because it has worked for me! What I am saying is that in there case 2+2= Rainbow... My only question is why won't you let them have their rainbow?


Deviance is not nothing.  The redefinition of marriage and all that it entails is not nothing.  It makes the "family unit" nothing and undefinable."  It gives sperm-doners the right to walk away...it gives women the right to kill their children...it gives homosexuals the parity with heterosexual couples...it gives polygamists and dog-lovers parity with traditional marriage.  Nothing would change, indeed.

It really doesn't.. I keep telling you that you are dillusional! There is no "boogieman" here! You are blindly following outdated, ignorant traditions! You lost me at dog-lovers??? But my answer is so what? Pick your freaking battles.. stay with abortion.. its harder to argue with you there!


And the problem here is not the polygamists either...or the pedophiles, after all, they're just misunderstood...or the animal-lovers, who only want to love their pets and leave them their "fortunes."   No problem at all...in YOUR anything-goes-world.

I can maybe see you comparing gay marriage to polygamy but you have got to drop it with the pedophile bestiality crap! It only shows your alleigence to the Westboro thugs!


So compare the rights of a wealthy ,caucasion, straight ,male to the rights of a poor, african american, lesbian! "Land of the Free" "All men are created equal"? PFFB (That was me making a rasberry)

What a crock.  Compare the rights of a wealthy, caucasion, straight male to the rights of a wealthy, black, straight male and you'll find perfect equity.  Make that "woman" or "gay" if you like that you'll still arrive at the same equation.  Our Founding Fathers never imagined that "all men are equated equal" to "any deviance or pecadillo goes."  So if you're interesting in starting "bizarro-nation" find someplace else to plant your roots.

That bizarro nation is called America pal! It is a melting pot of differences and we are waiting for people like you to snap out of your ignorant stupor! Your point would be valid if these "Deviants" weren't law abiding respectful people! ALL men are created equal within the sanctity and respect for anyone that doesn't impose on the rights of others! Pretty simple! We have come a long with sexism and racism, but If you look at the wealthiest people in this country they all had roots planted since the beginning! Hardly fair for anyone to feel "equal" here! They were also Caucasion Hetero Men!


Yes, Greece and Rome are often thought of as 'monkeys flinging crap at each other"...it you're an ignorant liberal.  Intelligent people might consider them the burgeoning of civilization.

Yeah of a crap throwing Civilization! What history did you learn about? I read about violent and ignorant cultures in my history class!! Great buildings though...and the Art Ballisima


What you've evolved into is an ignorant group of "anything-goes-anarchist-hypocrites" without a clue of thousands of years of social history and no insight into the future.  Congrats...you'll soon reap what you've sown...and, unfortunately, so will the rest of us.

Spread the fear! Liberals are demon spawn! I'm glad that I believe in reasonable conspiracies! Did I ever mention that I was a liberal? I'm for Bi-partisanship! Give either side the Torch and they burn our nation with it. Give them both the torch to ignite the Fires of Triumph!



Right...and all, if not most, were staunch believers in Christianity.  Try looking at their actual writings and their actual lives instead of excerpts from haters.  Our Founding Fathers, from Washington to Jefferson to Adams to ALL of the lesser known figures...were ALL staunch believers in GOD...with a capital "G"...and felt his guiding hand.  Shame on those who deny him...and their wisdom.

They may have been christians but Despised Religion! Jefferson wrote a book called "The Teachings of Jesus of Nazereth" Where he left out any claims to divinity and any miracles performed! Also the ressurection was left out! Those quotes from our Founding Fathers are legitimate! You just prefer the White washed versions of our fore fathers!

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