Rock and a Hard Place

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-12-2003
Rock and a Hard Place
1524
Thu, 11-20-2003 - 10:45am

There's something on this board that has been bothering me, and I hope I can articulate it.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 08-29-2002
Fri, 11-28-2003 - 11:49am
All of which is well and good. But if the philosophy is that under age x, the main point and emphasis of public education is that all children should achieve a certain set of predetermined standards, then comparing to a general standard is the appropriate thing to do. The idea behind this philosophy is that all children should be capable of a certain set of skills by age (in the case of Sweden) 14. This helps to guarantee the existence of a population who, regardless of background or SES, is able to read, write, do math through algebra, etc. Once children hit 15, they are expected to start working harder to challenge themselves and are tested and compared more to their peers. They will have to compete to get into the desired high school and field and they are fully aware of that. Using distribution charts and knowing where one is compared to one's classmates in high school and college makes sense. It doesn't make sense in elementary school if the main purpose of that school is to get all students to a certain level.

Laura

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-29-2002
Fri, 11-28-2003 - 11:51am
We may have very different ideas of what constitutes a braggart.


laura

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 11-28-2003 - 11:57am
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Wrong. Wrong. And wrong again. If a class is full of bright students, the class will move at that bright student pace. The average kid in the class of brights is in the same situation as the slow kid in the class of average ones. They can't keep up and the longer this allowed to go unaddressed, the bigger the gap between the average kid and the rest of the class will become. Until the average kid is no longer meeting average requirements. Learning does not happen simply in terms of raw ability. The way the material is presented and the pace at which the material is advanced are part of it. Average doesn't apply just to raw aptitude, but also to the pace at which material can be assimilated, the ammount repetition required, the degree of complexity or simplicity in which the material is presented. Average ability won't result in average performance in a class that is moving at an above average pace and with material presented in such a way that is perfectly suitable for those of above average ability. To say nothing of what this environmnent can do to the childs confidence and sense of self. A child performing below average in a class is NOT going to view himself as being of average academic ability. No matter how many times he is told he is average compared to all the kids in the world. The situation requires attention, and if all a parent knows is that the kid is meeting some sort of global requirements, the parent is not going to be aware of a huge peice of information that will most certainly affect the child in all kinds of ways in the years to come.

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-29-2002
Fri, 11-28-2003 - 12:09pm
And if they are not aware of some general standards, which their child is actually matching, the parents may be convinced that either a) the child is too lazy to achieve even the apparent "average", or b) their child is actually below average intellectually. Neither judgement is correct and both are equally likely to affect a child for years to come.


Laura

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-02-2003
Fri, 11-28-2003 - 12:14pm
I don't think anybody has ever said the classroom environment is irrelevent. What is irrelevent is the teacher's chart of who knows what in the classroom. One does not even relate to the other. Especially in the OP where CLW says that half the children don't know what a book is. Her child is at the top of that class - wow, that sure means a lot doesn't it? Guess her kid should be moved to the gifted class. It is just plain silly.
iVillage Member
Registered: 07-02-2003
Fri, 11-28-2003 - 12:18pm
First of all, there is a huge difference between comparing students in a class of university students and students in K class. In university the students would presumably be coming from a much more equitable base. The problem with taking these stats in early elementry school is that there is such a huge disparity that makes the stat irrelevent. As I said, it makes little difference is suzy is behind johnny mark and sally if johnny mark and sally are from the half of the class who had the good fortune of having WOHPs who sent them to daycare.
iVillage Member
Registered: 07-02-2003
Fri, 11-28-2003 - 12:19pm
<<>>

Don't be so hard on yourself - I'm sure you'll catch on sooner or later!

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-02-2003
Fri, 11-28-2003 - 12:22pm
I think you are probably right. IMO, a child who announces that he is the smartest in his class, needs to tone it down a tad. Moreover, it is a mistake to allow a child to derive his self esteem from something that he did nothing to achieve - something like a natural gift.
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 11-28-2003 - 12:28pm
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They are a little short sighted. The Canadian system would say nothing needs to be done because the child is at least meeting expectations, and is in an environment that will allow the child to progress at an rate appropriate to her, rather than JUST the rate appropriate to a national average.

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Again the child in Case 3) needs a different kind of assistance than the child in Case 4). Part of the assistance provided to kids who don't fit in addresses the issue that they spend alot of time in a class that moves at a rate that doesn't suit them. THIS child does not have that problem.

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This kid is probably enduring a faster pace and a more complex delivery than the child in case 4). He has additional issues to be addressed.

<< Case 1, if a single classroom is used as the point of comparison, could lead to a child being expected too much of if they had the bad luck to end up (as an average to above average student) in a class full of very much above average kids. >>

No, thats what happens when the class data isn't avail to parents. There are two cases. Either the kid gets As because the teacher grades to a national standard, in which case most of the class gets As and the marks don't reflect the underlying class distribution, just the class performance in terms of a national average. Or the kid gets Bs because the teacher grades to the class standard. Without a discussion of class distribution, the parent is left to conclude "My child is above average and gets As so I need to see some concrete evidence that this child is being challenged I must persue this with the teacher". or "My child is above average but gets Bs rather than As. My child is therefore bored and needs extra challenge I must persue this with the teacher.". The discussion of class distribution is absolutely essential in order for this parent to understand what is really going in either case.

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I take it the whole "my child is smart but gets Bs rather than As because they aren't challenged in the classroom" mentality doesn't exit in Sweden? Not to mention "My bright child gets only Bs something is wrong with the teacher/school"?

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Nobody said general standards weren't used. The question is whether class standards ARE used. The whole point is that the comparison against general standards by themselves don't give parents enough information to make decisions, to help direct the child, or even just to just passively understand what is going on with their child.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 11-28-2003 - 12:34pm
Yes. In spite of the feel good "preschool is too early to tell they'll catch up later" mindset that people seem to be flocking too...by Gr 4...the same kids who were going for special help in K are still going. The ones who were head and shoulders above...still there. The norm is that all things considered, the kids maintain their places relative to one another, more or less. The ones who shift particularily noticably are the exceptions. Worth keeping in mind with a struggling or excelling pre-schooler - yes. Worth COUNTING on? Definitely not.

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