"When women do what the stereotype says they'll do, it reinforces the stereotype". Yea, like going into teaching. That's a job traditionally held by women. If I actually believed this "don't follow the stereotype, whatever you do" rhetoric, I'd talk down teaching, nursing or daycare to dd and try to convince her to go into something traditionally masculine like law or (ahem) engineering. Luckily I don't believe that rhetoric. But you keep saying it over and over. So if it's bad to do something that fits a stereotype, why are you doing it? To be consistent with your rhetoric, you should stay in engineering to show that women can make LIFETIME careers out of engineering.
I know there are other factors to consider (a more family friendly schedule and such) but if you are taking the time and effort to retrain yourself, why didn't you pursue a special talent within engineering? Why not a specialty within engineering that makes you more valuable to your employer? Or an MBA to help you get into management?
And since when do you sit around and plan your own demise by the hand of your employer and try to make it easier for them? What a completely defeatist attitude.
Perhaps you will be able to encourage young female students who had never considered a career in engineering to take it up but I don't think you are helping, by your leaving engineering for teaching, any woman who had already started down that path.
But that is NOT the only ramification of a woman's choice. When making a decision to work or not the ramificaitons on the woman's family far outweigh any other ramifications. So just because a woman chooses differently than you would like her to it doesn't mean she didn't consider all the ramifications, just that she chose differently than you.
Besides, don't you see your own move from engineering (a male dominated field) to teaching (a stereotypical female field) as stereotypical? My mother told me that when she went to college she chose teaching because it was one of the few fields she knew she could continue working in even after she had kids. That was in 1960 (or so). So 40 years later when a woman drops out of a tough male dominated field to enter a female dominated field it really isn't any different than a woman dropping out of the workforce altogether.
We all have different needs at different times of our lives. I think it is unfair to label all women who chose to take a break from work traitors to all of womankind.
I had my career for 16 years. Then I quit. I was laid off and didn't go back to work. I could have gotten another job but chose to SAH for a few years. I was pretty serious about my career while I worked. Why should I have not entered the field in the first place? Nothing needs to be forever.
Women can make choices now and not have to live with them forever. While a decision to drop out of the workforce does change your future earnings prospects it doesn't preclude you from ever re-entering the workforce and resurrecting your career. And likewise a decision to enter the workforce as a young woman (I graduated from college at age 21) doesn't mean you must remain a member of the workforce forever. We can make choices now and change them. There is nothing wrong with that.
Give me a break. Don't fix anything because the "perception" which at this point is NOT a "percetion" but a "fact" will linger? Well duh and yeah. Imagine. The big bad world won't turn on a dime to suit *women*. So women have no responsibility for fixing things for themselves...because the world won't immediately give them their *love*? How totally and inexcusably pathetic of women. Thats how it works and thank goodness too. As a group behave a certain way for a few generations, the *world* will want some convincing before they're convinced the *group* has really changed. Oh gosh darn dang. Women want to be viewed as equally valuable to the workforce. Guess what. Women are going to have to (hold onto your hat you won't like this) BE equally valuable to the workforce. Women either stop the whining b*tching complaining and other bellyaching about how the world isn't giving them their due. Get out there. Prepare themselves as young women to be ABLE to and to fully EXPECT to be able to support their families for the long term without building in quitting plans. Get out there and marry men with less earning potential far more often. Keep jobs willingly even if they (ghasp) aren't particularily enjoying the job and getting all kinds of fullfillment, just because its the responsible thing to do. Then you know what...once a whole heck of alot more women start doing ALL that, and living their lives with a sense of personal responsiblity for funding that live, there will - magically - be more MEN out there who can possibly decide it would be a *wise* move for THEM to quit THEIR jobs and do childcare for THEIR families. Either way you cut it its TOTALLY up to women to change EVERYTHING for themselves at this point. The *world*, I think, personally, has done ENOUGH and its now OUR turn to meet it half way. We have all the tools we need to accomplish it. The only problem seems to be...wah...wadya mean WE have to DO something. Wah...no...surely there is still someone else to BLAME wah. Women, as a group, need to GROW UP. Or failing all that, just accept as a group that they are *percieved* as being less valuable to the workforce because as a group they have CHOSEN (LOVE those choices women have) to BE less valuable to the workforce. And the world unfortunately is not all about me and my particular situation as a woman and my particular abilities. The world does not owe me special treatment. The world does not have time. The world is busy. The world couldn't give a damn about my needs wants and aspirations. The world needs to make choices and the world will make the best choice *it* can based on information *it* has with *it*self in mind. And I'm glad. I do the same thing. I'm shopping for a new car. I'm not buying one with a statistically lower reliablility. I realize there are no guarantees and any make and model can turn out a fantastic vehicle as well as a total lemon. Don't care. Not risking it. And the world has information about the increased liklihood of me, as a woman, quitting my job just because, nothing they can do about it, as compared to the chances of same from a male. Its not some mean nasty unfair stereotype - its just a fact.
There is absolutely NOTHING stereotypical about a FEMALE ENGINEER moving into the TEACHING field. You'll search far and wide to find another. The experienced-professional-becomes-teacher breed are rare as it is. The TECHNICAL PROFESSIONAL BECOMES TEACHER is extremely rare. The FEMALE TECHNICAL PROFESSIONAL BECOMES TEACHER - well grimal will be practically ONE OF A KIND. And the ammount of good she'll do young girls, far more of whom have primary adult female role models of "Sah" or "Teacher" or "Anything typically female" rather than "Technical or anything typically non-female" will do those girls a world of good. Its going to be the ONLY real chance many of them have to come in contact with a living, breathing, real woman who is part of their lives and to whom they can actually talk, who broke out of the traditional roles. "Yep...I'm an ENGINEER....just like your DAD!" I guarantee, it will still, in this day and age, astound many young girls. All the rehtoric in the world doesn't do it without real life to back it up. To many young girls, the idea of "girl as engineer" is right up there with the idea of "girl as princess". Yeah, it happens...but it requires special circumstances unavailable to the everyday person.
<<50% of the men in the technical field left their jobs to SAH, then the levelling field would be EQUAL.>>
Well first, women are going to have to prepare themselves to be able to support families, and start opting for husbands who merely meet their own potential, rather than constantly looking for the kind who will be able to *provide* for them. To do that, young girls are going to have to grow up full well believing its their actual responsibility to provide for themselves and their offspring. Their parents will have to adivise them on the importance of paycheque early on and instill them with a sense of personal responsibility for their own lives. Moms who sah because they really have little choice, will have ADMIT they wish they could do more for their families financially, to their young girls, but just didn't prepare themselves. And stop pretending otherwise. We are nowhere near where things need to be if you ever want to see more sahds. Its all up to women.
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And since when do you sit around and plan your own demise by the hand of your employer and try to make it easier for them? What a completely defeatist attitude.
Perhaps you will be able to encourage young female students who had never considered a career in engineering to take it up but I don't think you are helping, by your leaving engineering for teaching, any woman who had already started down that path.
Besides, don't you see your own move from engineering (a male dominated field) to teaching (a stereotypical female field) as stereotypical? My mother told me that when she went to college she chose teaching because it was one of the few fields she knew she could continue working in even after she had kids. That was in 1960 (or so). So 40 years later when a woman drops out of a tough male dominated field to enter a female dominated field it really isn't any different than a woman dropping out of the workforce altogether.
Jenna
Edited 7/18/2004 7:48 pm ET ET by 1969jets
I had my career for 16 years. Then I quit. I was laid off and didn't go back to work. I could have gotten another job but chose to SAH for a few years. I was pretty serious about my career while I worked. Why should I have not entered the field in the first place? Nothing needs to be forever.
Women can make choices now and not have to live with them forever. While a decision to drop out of the workforce does change your future earnings prospects it doesn't preclude you from ever re-entering the workforce and resurrecting your career. And likewise a decision to enter the workforce as a young woman (I graduated from college at age 21) doesn't mean you must remain a member of the workforce forever. We can make choices now and change them. There is nothing wrong with that.
Jenna
Jenna
<<50% of the men in the technical field left their jobs to SAH, then the levelling field would be EQUAL.>>
Well first, women are going to have to prepare themselves to be able to support families, and start opting for husbands who merely meet their own potential, rather than constantly looking for the kind who will be able to *provide* for them. To do that, young girls are going to have to grow up full well believing its their actual responsibility to provide for themselves and their offspring. Their parents will have to adivise them on the importance of paycheque early on and instill them with a sense of personal responsibility for their own lives. Moms who sah because they really have little choice, will have ADMIT they wish they could do more for their families financially, to their young girls, but just didn't prepare themselves. And stop pretending otherwise. We are nowhere near where things need to be if you ever want to see more sahds. Its all up to women.
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