"Infants, and all baby mammals, are born with a sucking (or suckling) reflex, which they use in nursing liquid foods, such as milk. They do not have to learn this reflex, because it is instinctive. Some adult animals use suction in drinking, as do humans when using drinking straws. In breathing, the diaphragm muscle is used to expand the lungs, allowing air to enter due to the outside air pressure."
"Isnt that a blanket statement? LOL"
Yes it is.
The difference is that I am very careful to make blanket statements only when I can support them with something other than my own opinion.
The chimps are our closest relatives and can nurse up to 5-6 years. If you equate that to human years, it is more like 6-7. Dolphins can be weaned as young as 3, but some are nursed to 10 or so. I'd say somewhere in between is more "normal". I don't really look much to tigers or lions to base myself on humans and what we should do, because they are pretty far removed from us AND not intelligent to the same level as dolphins.
However, I did once see a 1-month old hamster nursing. And figuring that hamsters live about a maximum of 2-3 years, if I assume 3 is really old, around about 90 human years, then 1 year would be the equivelant of 30 human years, therefore 1 month would be about 2.5 years. That is the lower end of what Kathy Dettwyler figures is human natural weaning age. ;-) And this is for a hamster, not a particularily brainy animal AFAICS.
ETA: in case you were looking for some data on dolphins, here is some on the bottlenosed dolphin. I know I have seen (somewhere) some data including dolphins up to 10 years, but this one mentions 9 years for the oldest. Like us, weaning is MUCH MORE COMMON around 3-4.
"Weaning and COA Weaning ages are shown in Figure 4. The majority of calves (66.7%) were weaned before their fourth birthday (N = 42 calves). Three calves were weaned in their sixth year, two calves in their seventh year, and one in her ninth year.
The COA of all calves preweaning averaged 94.0 (SD = 6.5, median = 96.0, range = 77.4-100) and averaged 25.3 postweaning (SD = 24.2, median = 20.2, range = 0-82.5). The only calf with a postweaning COA within the range of preweaned calves was the daughter of a provisioned female.
For seven calves, we knew the precise weaning age (within 1 month) and gestational status of the mother at time of weaning. Gestational status of the mother was determined by the birth of the next calf. Five calves were weaned during month 5, one during month 6, and one during the month 10 of the mother's next pregnancy."
However, dolphins have a maximum age of 40-50 years and an AVERAGE life expectancy of 25 years. Our life expectancy is closer to 80 now, so comparatively, one would expect us to nurse LONGER, again, than a dolphin, not for a shorter time.
More on that later...no time, gotta get to work. ;-)
Nope. I never stated anything about anyone as fact. Got that universal thing yet?
<<>>
Oh so now it is an opinion not fact. So basically you are saying you didnt word it well? You wrote it as fact not opinion. You still havent back up that it is universal.
<<>>
There is nothing in there about need. I think it would be silly to say that a person doesnt know how to suck. Although to say they have a need to suck is what you said.
<<>>
Lets try this one more time.
I said: IMHO I think it is babying to nurse an older child. If I were stating it as you did about the NEED to nurse being univeral to all children I would have said...IT is babying to nurse an older child. See the difference?
"Studies by anthropologists and comparative biologists have revealed that the probable natural weaning age (that is, the age at which no more nursing occurs) of the human species is over 2 1/2 years. There is no harm in permitting a child who wants to continue nursing for two years or more to do so. In fact, it is quite common everywhere in the world that bottle-feeding is not the cultural norm. The fact that it is not unusual in our culture for a child of 3 to be drinking milk from a bottle or using a pacifier is a clue that the ***need to suck is a fundamental human need that does not disappear at six months or one year of age***."
"It is important to realize that sucking is more than just a way to get sustenance. ***Babies have a need to suck for the sake of sucking***. The mouth is an important sense organ through which the baby gets a great deal of information about the world. Many adults have oral needs not too different from the baby's. Smoking, gum-chewing, gnawing on erasers or wads of paper, and perhaps overeating, all serve to allay oral cravings which may be a carryover from an infancy in which our sucking and chewing urges went unsatisfied.
If the baby is given all the sucking opportunities he needs, he will give up day time thumb and pacifier sucking - except in moments of stress - by about age two, and by two and a half he can be talked out of taking his pacifier to bed. ***Sucking is a need, not a virtue, and as a need it shouldn't last forever***."
"The sucking reflex seems to belong with the Rooting reflex. It is present before birth, and also aids in breastfeeding. It causes the child to instinctively begin to suck on anything that touches the roof of their mouth. This reflex is common to mammals, and specifically designed to express milk through the breastfeeding process."
"***Infants are hardwired to need and enjoy sucking as a separate experience from feeding***. In some infants this need is more pronounced than in others. Infants turn to sucking most when they are tired, bored, or in need of comfort. ***Some form of non-nutritive sucking has been common in every society we know***."
"I think it is clear that human children have sucking instincts that can persist until 7 or 8 years of age, or even longer, and must meet those needs somehow -- through thumb, finger, or pacifier, if not allowed to meet them at the breast. But I also think that meeting those needs at the breast is the "normal/natural" context or situation, and involves not just lowering the heart rate/blood pressure, but also the transfer of nutrients and immunities, as well as helping the child with thermoregulation from being in contact with its mother's body. It may be that thumb/finger/pacifier sucking "tricks" the child into being "pacified" for the time being, even to the extent of reducing the time spent at the breast. That doesn't mean it is good for the child. In fact, finger and thumb sucking often lead to orthodontic problems. In the U.S. orthodontists even have evil-looking devices they will install in a child's mouth to make it painful for the child to continue sucking their thumb/fingers, in order to break them of this habit. If the child were allowed to meet those sucking needs at the breast, it wouldn't lead to orthodontic problems (in fact, just the opposite, with less orthodontic problems in long-term breastfed kids)."
Pages
<<>>
"I havent."
Yes. You have and you've been called on it repeatedly.
"YOU did. You stated that this was universal to all children."
Yes. I did.
However, I have offered support for that opinion with something other than my own opinion.
"Oh yeah...where is that data about all children needing to suck is universal?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suction#Suction_in_biology
Suction in biology
"Infants, and all baby mammals, are born with a sucking (or suckling) reflex, which they use in nursing liquid foods, such as milk. They do not have to learn this reflex, because it is instinctive. Some adult animals use suction in drinking, as do humans when using drinking straws. In breathing, the diaphragm muscle is used to expand the lungs, allowing air to enter due to the outside air pressure."
"Isnt that a blanket statement? LOL"
Yes it is.
The difference is that I am very careful to make blanket statements only when I can support them with something other than my own opinion.
The chimps are our closest relatives and can nurse up to 5-6 years. If you equate that to human years, it is more like 6-7. Dolphins can be weaned as young as 3, but some are nursed to 10 or so. I'd say somewhere in between is more "normal". I don't really look much to tigers or lions to base myself on humans and what we should do, because they are pretty far removed from us AND not intelligent to the same level as dolphins.
However, I did once see a 1-month old hamster nursing. And figuring that hamsters live about a maximum of 2-3 years, if I assume 3 is really old, around about 90 human years, then 1 year would be the equivelant of 30 human years, therefore 1 month would be about 2.5 years. That is the lower end of what Kathy Dettwyler figures is human natural weaning age. ;-) And this is for a hamster, not a particularily brainy animal AFAICS.
ETA: in case you were looking for some data on dolphins, here is some on the bottlenosed dolphin. I know I have seen (somewhere) some data including dolphins up to 10 years, but this one mentions 9 years for the oldest. Like us, weaning is MUCH MORE COMMON around 3-4.
http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/11/2/210
"Weaning and COA
Weaning ages are shown in Figure 4. The majority of calves (66.7%) were weaned before their fourth birthday (N = 42 calves). Three calves were weaned in their sixth year, two calves in their seventh year, and one in her ninth year.
The COA of all calves preweaning averaged 94.0 (SD = 6.5, median = 96.0, range = 77.4-100) and averaged 25.3 postweaning (SD = 24.2, median = 20.2, range = 0-82.5). The only calf with a postweaning COA within the range of preweaned calves was the daughter of a provisioned female.
For seven calves, we knew the precise weaning age (within 1 month) and gestational status of the mother at time of weaning. Gestational status of the mother was determined by the birth of the next calf. Five calves were weaned during month 5, one during month 6, and one during the month 10 of the mother's next pregnancy."
However, dolphins have a maximum age of 40-50 years and an AVERAGE life expectancy of 25 years. Our life expectancy is closer to 80 now, so comparatively, one would expect us to nurse LONGER, again, than a dolphin, not for a shorter time.
More on that later...no time, gotta get to work. ;-)
Fio
Edited 4/17/2007 7:45 pm ET by macbump
Are you ready for a truce yet?
I promise I'll be gracious about it.
All you have to do is say the word and it's done.
<<>>
Nope. I never stated anything about anyone as fact. Got that universal thing yet?
<<>>
Oh so now it is an opinion not fact. So basically you are saying you didnt word it well? You wrote it as fact not opinion. You still havent back up that it is universal.
<<>>
There is nothing in there about need. I think it would be silly to say that a person doesnt know how to suck. Although to say they have a need to suck is what you said.
<<>>
Lets try this one more time.
I said: IMHO I think it is babying to nurse an older child. If I were stating it as you did about the NEED to nurse being univeral to all children I would have said...IT is babying to nurse an older child. See the difference?
No.
I personally don't see the "need" or the reason why I would or should use my breast to comfort a child. My breast is intended to feed my child.
Would you give your kid a cookie if he fell down?
http://www.promom.org/bf_info/10things.html
"Studies by anthropologists and comparative biologists have revealed that the probable natural weaning age (that is, the age at which no more nursing occurs) of the human species is over 2 1/2 years. There is no harm in permitting a child who wants to continue nursing for two years or more to do so. In fact, it is quite common everywhere in the world that bottle-feeding is not the cultural norm. The fact that it is not unusual in our culture for a child of 3 to be drinking milk from a bottle or using a pacifier is a clue that the ***need to suck is a fundamental human need that does not disappear at six months or one year of age***."
http://www.pediatricservices.com/parents/pc-23.htm
All ages sucking
"It is important to realize that sucking is more than just a way to get sustenance. ***Babies have a need to suck for the sake of sucking***. The mouth is an important sense organ through which the baby gets a great deal of information about the world. Many adults have oral needs not too different from the baby's. Smoking, gum-chewing, gnawing on erasers or wads of paper, and perhaps overeating, all serve to allay oral cravings which may be a carryover from an infancy in which our sucking and chewing urges went unsatisfied.
If the baby is given all the sucking opportunities he needs, he will give up day time thumb and pacifier sucking - except in moments of stress - by about age two, and by two and a half he can be talked out of taking his pacifier to bed. ***Sucking is a need, not a virtue, and as a need it shouldn't last forever***."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmar_grasp
Sucking
"The sucking reflex seems to belong with the Rooting reflex. It is present before birth, and also aids in breastfeeding. It causes the child to instinctively begin to suck on anything that touches the roof of their mouth. This reflex is common to mammals, and specifically designed to express milk through the breastfeeding process."
http://www.drgreene.com/21_860.html
"***Infants are hardwired to need and enjoy sucking as a separate experience from feeding***. In some infants this need is more pronounced than in others. Infants turn to sucking most when they are tired, bored, or in need of comfort. ***Some form of non-nutritive sucking has been common in every society we know***."
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detthumb.html
"I think it is clear that human children have sucking instincts that can persist until 7 or 8 years of age, or even longer, and must meet those needs somehow -- through thumb, finger, or pacifier, if not allowed to meet them at the breast. But I also think that meeting those needs at the breast is the "normal/natural" context or situation, and involves not just lowering the heart rate/blood pressure, but also the transfer of nutrients and immunities, as well as helping the child with thermoregulation from being in contact with its mother's body. It may be that thumb/finger/pacifier sucking "tricks" the child into being "pacified" for the time being, even to the extent of reducing the time spent at the breast. That doesn't mean it is good for the child. In fact, finger and thumb sucking often lead to orthodontic problems. In the U.S. orthodontists even have evil-looking devices they will install in a child's mouth to make it painful for the child to continue sucking their thumb/fingers, in order to break them of this habit. If the child were allowed to meet those sucking needs at the breast, it wouldn't lead to orthodontic problems (in fact, just the opposite, with less orthodontic problems in long-term breastfed kids)."
Pages