In today's economy, how can U stay home?
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| Mon, 08-07-2006 - 2:46pm |
I am 33 and am basically now sadly coming to the conclusion that we just can't have kids. I just don't know how people do it. In order to afford our mortgage, my husband and I both have to work full-time. And we bought a home in the least expensive market we could find in proximity to our jobs, so we commute up to four hours a day to make this work.
However, we both agreed, long long ago that we would only have kids if we could raise them ourselves. We just can't in good conscience reconcile the idea of having children and then handing them off to some stranger who is making close to minimum wages to rear them, and who can't possibly care about them as much as we do. And what would be the point? We would miss all their development and "firsts" and wouldn't be a close family, and they would grow up with attachment issues due to rapidly changing daycare staffing. No, if we can't do it the right way, we don't want to do it at all. We feel it's selfish to have them because WE WANT them; we decided long ago only to have them if we felt we could give them a wonderful life filled with love, hope, and opportunity.
So I am getting up there in age now, and I don't see things changing. The only people I see around me having children are people who 1) have family who live close by and can take care of their kids, 2) rich people, or women who marry rich men to be more specific, and 3) people whose families help them out financially.
Is there a chance for two people like us to have a family, when we don't have any of the above advantages? It doesn't seem like it should be THIS impossible! We're both hard workers who make decent money TOGETHER. Separately, it's not enough, but together, it's a good amount.
HOW could we make it happen? I have heard that having children after 34 the risks just go up and up and up, that they may not be healthy...

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"And you know, maybe the answer is not that one parent works and the other doesn't...but changing how many hours each spends working and whatnot. I wish we could just improve the situation, so both parents could still have fulfilling jobs and good salaries while not having to each work 8 hours a day."
Seems like a reasonable solution to me! Many parents work part-time or incorporate some time working from home when their kids are small. Or, another possibility is that both parents work - but just not at the same time. DH and I have rarely had the same schedule over the years. Nature of his job (he's a cop). But the up-side is that one of us is home far more often than not. DH may be working on many weekends, but that is time I have just to me and the kids and when they were small, DH being off during my work week meant he had days that were just him and the kids. It was a good solution for us - each of us had alone time with our kids and we never needed more then part-time childcare.
"You just stated that it doesn't happen often and in the previous post you stated each month, not each week"
I did because you did. That's why I asked about it. I was confused. We were on months, then suddenly we went to weeks...so I was like, wait, what? WE ARE CONFUSING THE CRAP OUT OF EACH OTHER. lol.
"But you have stated that it's monthly, not weekly in the previous post and stated in a previous post that you leave him maybe once a month "
It must have been a typo. I apologize. I meant once a week, if I did say once a month. I think we were going once a week, several hours a month, and then we started getting them switched up.
"You consider your separations from your son rare. Therefore, the time that your dh spends with your son alone, must also be rare since your separations from him are rare, correct? "
Yeah. That's what I meant.
"I don't, I find the details to be interesting. I find debate to be interesting."
As do I, but I just don't see merit in getting down to exact numbers in certain situations. That's all.
"I have only been to two MaryKay parties and both times the consultant was very hands on with demonstration, so perhaps that is what I have in my mind as an experience."
Probably! Every consultant does it her own way and is different. I definitely do not run my business the same as all or most other consultants. Most leave their kids behind. I don't always have that luxury because Corey isn't always home, off from work, and because I haven't been able to find a good sitter.
"I never stated any such thing."
I know. I was just trying to clarify.
"I usually cook with two hands, it takes two to cut/slice and such...I'm not sure that I would want my child in my other hand while I was doing that."
I cook many one-handed meals and try to buy things pre-cut or employee Corey's help. However, a lot of the time Corbin is playing with the pots and pans at my feet when I'm cooking. I'm just saying that I'm pretty good at doing lots of things with only one-hand. I'm good with my hands. Not too coordinated with my other body parts, LOL. There's a one-handed cookbook they have at Babies R Us. I'd love to get that for a present. It's like $30 I think though so I have yet to actually buy it! I'm like the queen of multi-tasking. It helps me survive, as a military wife who's husband is often sent away.
And I do usually type two-handed as well. I'm a very fast typist. But I can type with one hand...just not as efficiently, lol.
Edited 8/23/2006 2:09 am ET by punkalicorn
Edited 8/23/2006 2:11 am ET by punkalicorn
" but I do think the difference between man and woman comes into play, too. There are of course women who are athletes and men who make wonderful SAHDs, but I think overall women are the more nurturing, gentler sex."
And men are just naturally better at things like math and science? You'll forgive me if I strenuously disagree. As we have established, there are some very big differences between the amount of time you and your DH each put into hands-on caregiving. In my house, that difference was much much less. DH was an active participant literally from day one. The result is that even a macho, gun-toting, martial-arts-lovin guy like him is an excellent, nurturing father. Opportunity, experience, and confidence are what make good parents. Not hormones or reproductive organs.
"Agreed. I jsut don't think they should take up as much of the kids' lives and time as the parents do."
Seems reasonable to me.
"If you're gone 8 hours a day, sleep 8 hours a day, that leaves only 8 hours for parent and child intreaction with the exception of nighttime wakefulness. That means the caregiving balance is tilted slightly toward the parent, but that care of the child is pretty close to being split down the middle between daycare provider and parent. And additionally, if we're going to give each parent an individual amount of alone time with the child, say 4 hours of family time, then 2 hours each of parent-child alone time, then each parent isn't spending as much time with the child as the daycare provider and if they are the amount of time is about equal with what they spend with the daycare provider... so how would anyone be the primary caregiver if it was split up that way?"
First - you are assuming that parents always work at the same time and that young children are in nonparental care full-time which is not always the case (start a poll if you are curious how families manage this aspect in many different ways). But even if they do, I fail to see the problem with two involved, hands-on parents and an invested, nurturing nonparental caregiver. A situation that works well for many families.
"I think the ideal situation would be each parent working a few hours a day, so that they don't spend lots of time in daycare, then get lots of time together as a family and alone with mom and dad. "
That's pretty much how we aaw the early years, except that rather than working fewer hours, we simply worked at slightly different times. Same end result.
"And men are just naturally better at things like math and science? "
No, not things like math and science but indeed things like lifting heavy objects, protecting, hunting, etc. I think that's just in general. I know it doesn't apply to everyone. I know plenty of tough women that could kick some butt ;)
"Opportunity, experience, and confidence are what make good parents. Not hormones or reproductive organs."
I agree, and I never said that they did make a good or better parent. I just think that men were naturally hard-wired to do things like fight off enemies, lift heavy objects, hunt, while women were naturally hard-wired to feed babies and be more in tune with them. With time, practice, confidence, dedication, work, etc. a woman can be a great fighter, hunter and lifter, and some women just are like that naturally. The same goes for men when it comes to qualities that traditionally were seen to be those of the mother. But I do think that gender in many cases does play a huge part in personality. There are clear differences in when children of different genders reach different milestones and of their favorite activities in general, so I think that it does apply somewhat in life as it does in infancy.
"First - you are assuming that parents always work at the same time and that young children are in nonparental care full-time which is not always the case "
True, but if they work alternating shifts, that doesn't leave much time for being altogether as a family, does it? I agree working at slightly different times seems a great alternative, leaving lots of family time, individual time with each parent, and then a little bit with the childcare provider. Too bad it seems like most shifts are regular 9-5ers. My husband works like 7-3 right now so a situation like that, with me working 9-5, might work...except that I really doubt I'd make enough to pay a care provider and still have any money left over, being that I just have a diploma & no degree. :/
"But even if they do, I fail to see the problem with two involved, hands-on parents and an invested, nurturing nonparental caregiver"
I do when the child is spending as much/more time with the caregiver. I don't think it should be an equal partnership between mom, dad, and caregiver but equal between mom and dad and then the caregiver on the side as much as possible.
I like where you are going with this discussion.
If only society would just say "Hey, look, kids are spending lots of time in daycare, and it's getting harder and harder to balance career and family..and heck, face it, we're living in times where it's hard to survive on one income and almost impossible."
I'm doing my best. One of the benefits I see to staying in the workforce as a mother is the opportunity to help shape issues exactly like this. I enjoy being a success at my job while having three kids at home because it shows people like my bosses that moms are worth accomodating to keep them around. Plus, I also am a boss and I get the opportunity to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, by supporting my employees with their goals for work/family.
I am optimistic. I think the recognition of the importance of women in most workplaces is increasing, leading to more employers working to accomodate moms. And each generation has seen a greater participation by dads in hands-on childcare meaning greater flexibility for creating parent-time. For example, DH says that the overnight shift is more sought after than the day shift because many of DH's fellow officers have kids and working overnight means that a parent can be home when school is out. These are mostly men, mind you. Also, statistics show that while there are a large number of kids (several million) in full-time childcare, more than half of all kids with WOHMS are not in childcare full-time. And, most kids are cared for at home either by a parent, another family member, or a nanny. About one-quarter are cared for by in-home childcare providers, and only 1/4 of infants/toddlers in childcare centers. Clearly many parents are finding ways to do just what you suggest - maximize family time while having two working parents.
I absolutely agree that supporting parents in their early years with children with more flex-time, part-time scedules, telecommuting options etc benefits everyone. Keeps more workers at their jobs (good for employers) and lets parents structure their family time in the way that works best for them (great for families). I would add that more high-quality childcare options would also be good - at-work options, subsidies so that more families can afford the higher-priced (and generally better quality) centers, etc.
"I'm doing my best."
I know. :)
"One of the benefits I see to staying in the workforce as a mother is the opportunity to help shape issues exactly like this."
"it shows people like my bosses that moms are worth accomodating to keep them around"
Good point!!
"I think the recognition of the importance of women in most workplaces is increasing, leading to more employers working to accomodate moms."
I agree! But we need to accomodate the papas too. :)
"And each generation has seen a greater participation by dads in hands-on childcare meaning greater flexibility for creating parent-time."
I know. OMG, I can't imagine living back when the childcare was like SOLELY the mom's job. I don't get a TON of help from Corey, but things are so much more difficult when he's not around at all. I could NOT be a single mom, really. I need that extra set of helping hands! It's so much harder to do it all by myself. I don't lean on Corey a whole lot, and I stay busy but when he's gone...things get soo overwhelming. He's been gone a total of five months this year. :( Well, that's the military for you, and that's why we never intended it to be his long-term career!
"Clearly many parents are finding ways to do just what you suggest - maximize family time while having two working parents."
That's great. Finally someone posts some research that actually makes me more optimistic about the whole situation! Hopefully as we try to find more ways to do this, employers will realize how important family time is to both moms and dads.
"I absolutely agree that supporting parents in their early years with children with more flex-time, part-time scedules, telecommuting options etc benefits everyone."
Definitely, especially in the early years. And, of course in the school age years, being understanding when you need time off for something child-related like the kid being sick. Maybe child sickness days instead of just sickness days? Well, then people without gets would get jealous, probably. But, I don't know, more personal days maybe? And offering schedules where they could be home when their kids are out of school, instead of having to go to daycare after school.
"I would add that more high-quality childcare options would also be good - at-work options, subsidies so that more families can afford the higher-priced (and generally better quality) centers, etc."
What would be great is having childcare/schools that are near the office. Then, even the hurried family could possibly all get together for lunch. There's a lot of hype about family meal times being important and beneficial, and I definitely agree. It's a great time to connect and just focus on each other. I know some schools allow parents to take the kids for lunch or come eat lunch with the kids, sit in on classes. IF everyone was closeby, even if they couldn't take lunch at the same time as the kids, well, maybe they could sit it on classes and be involved in the schooling in that way.
Who needs debate? Much more gets done when people put their heads together. :)
"I just think that men were naturally hard-wired to do things like fight off enemies, lift heavy objects, hunt, while women were naturally hard-wired to feed babies and be more in tune with them."
Sure, mena nd women are different - but those difference do not make one a better parent. Men are fathers, not mothers. Women are mothers, not fathers. But both mothers and fathers can be equally competent, nurturing, hands-on parents. They may do some things slightly different, but different is not necessarily better or worse.
"I do when the child is spending as much/more time with the caregiver. I don't think it should be an equal partnership between mom, dad, and caregiver but equal between mom and dad and then the caregiver on the side as much as possible."
But we have already established that even with a "full-time" schedule, children are cared for the majority of their time by parents, not childcare providers. This is a spectrum, not a case of one is good (no chidlcare) and the other bad (40 hours a week childcare). Different families have difference preferences and comfort zones. Many families with SAHP will still opt for preschool. Sometimes "full-time" (many Montessori programs, for example), sometimes part-time (a few hours a day) and some very part-time (one or two part-time days a week). Some use preschool programs only for pre-K, other start progrmas when the child is 3 or younger. Some families with two working parents prefer no nonparental childcare and parents work opposite shifts, limited childcare (parents work part-time or stagger schedules) or full-time care. There is no inherent better or worse arrangement, IMO, they are all, depending on the family and child, shades of good.
"those difference do not make one a better parent"
I agree :)
"They may do some things slightly different, but different is not necessarily better or worse"
I think this is true in most situations, not all. Obviously a mother can feed the baby better, because breastmilk straight from the breast is considered to be more nutritional than anything from a bottle (even pumped breastmilk). And research also suggests a nursing mama is more 'aware' of her baby. I'm sure he could give a bottle as well as me, lol, but the stuff in it wouldn't be as good.
"But we have already established that even with a "full-time" schedule, children are cared for the majority of their time by parents, not childcare providers."
Cared for, not spending time with. When they're sleeping, they're being cared for by their parents in the sense that if they wake mom and dad are there, but they're not spending time with them. When it comes to actual time awake, they're not being cared by anyone a real 'majority' of the time. Let's say, 8 hours a day of sleep, 8 hours with a care provider, 8 hours with mom and dad, then there's those sixteen hours on the weekend. That means that they are spending time with mom and dad more than they do with the childcare provider, but a majority would be if they spent 2/3 of their awake time with their parents. So...I should probably ammend my statement to be something more along the lines of "Children should be spending the majority of their waking hours with their parents" rather than just more time in general. Because what you do with your time is just as important, if not more, than the time itself, right?
But in any case, I just think it should work out so that they're not like... sleeping 8 hours, daycare 8 hours, mom and dad 8 hours (which coouldn't possibly give the child as much alone time with mom or dad as with the daycare provider). Maybe like, sleeping 8 hours, then daycare 6 hours, then mom and dad 10 hours. Like I said, 8 hours a day just feels like a lot to spend with a daycare provider.
"There is no inherent better or worse arrangement, IMO, they are all, depending on the family and child, shades of good."
I think the important thing is just trying to maximize family time and do what's best for the family. :)
Hey, here's a question, since we're discussing daycare and improvements to the work place and those sorts of situations. Do you think daycare programs are getting too academic? I've heard some things about how, instead of being good for kids, that can be bad. That we end up with kids that can spit back facts rater than creative problem-solvers when we focus more on learning the alphabet when they're younger than we do with stacking blocks and other types of play. So, I'm just wondering. Do you think it's better to have a very academic daycare program--or one where the kids get to play, but are in encouraged to learn in subtle ways like being told "that's a duck" when they are holding a rubber duckie? I know different daycare programs have different styles, but I've heard of daycare programs handing out like... curriculum summaries and whatnot, of all the different facts they are going to learn. Like on Daddy Day Care, that academy where the kids are learning French at like 4 in a class room. I have heard that there are centers that are actually similar to that on some level! What do you think?
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I suppose that MIGHT be true. On a planet where weekends don't exist.
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