Hi

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-09-2007
Hi
79
Thu, 11-20-2008 - 7:34am

I posted this on another board and wanted to see what reactions (and feathers got ruffled) over here. I'm wondering if there are more anti-vaccinating or more pro-vaccinating women over here...


If you were to talk to grandparents and great-grandparents who had to deal with losing childhood friends to diseases and illnesses that we vaccinate and have under control today, they think everyone who doesn't is c-r-a-z-y for not. It's too bad that it may take hundreds of children dying per year for people to realize that vaccines aren't from the devil.


Also, it has always irked me that those who choose not to vaccinate rely on my kids being vaccinated (and everyone else's kids who are) to keep their succeptible children from becoming seriously sick. I mean if EVERYONE in America stopped vaccinating, hundreds of kids WOULD get sick and WOULD die. Period. There really is no debate there. So yes, it bugs me that MY oh-so-horrible-vaccination on my kids keeps those who aren't safer.

mrsvanoven


 

I'm a vaccinating,

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iVillage Member
Registered: 01-02-2009
In reply to: not_a_princess
Sat, 01-03-2009 - 11:26pm

Another grandma here.

The vaccine critical stance in my family started with my grandfather, so we are talking maybe 1910 or thereabouts. My grandchildren are therefore the 5th generation of mostly non-vaccinators in this family. And, in that time, no one has died or even been seriously injured from a "vaccine preventable disease." My family, with 5 children, made it through the polio epidemics in the 1940s and 1950s without the vaccine. Which turned out to be a good deal, no monkey viruses! And no polio.

So, I can honestly say that serious non-vaccinators can be aware of children dying or being seriously injured from a particular illness (polio) and still refuse the vaccines for their children. I will say that my parents had a pretty good understanding of polio and how to avoid it, which probably contributed to their confidence and their choices.

We all had measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox (3 of us at one time, my poor mother!) and probably a few other bits of this and that. There were, of course, no vaccines for any of those illnesses in the 1940s and 1950s and very few parents were terrified that their children were going to die or have permanent damage if they caught mumps, etc. In fact, I was chatting a few months ago with one of my contemporaries and she remarked that her mother had tried, actively, for years to make sure that she caught measles with no result.

So what was going on here?

For one thing, I think few people realize the huge change in living conditions between 1870 and about 1929. The growth of huge slums in the large cities of the U.S. led to horrendous living conditions for large numbers of people, with the natural result of outbreaks of a variety of epidemic diseases with high mortality. In the late 1800s a group of reformers, the Progressives, began to fight to clean up the slums, institute regular garbage collection (seems sort of obvious, now), improve water quality, improve nutrition, provide medical care, institute hospitals to quarantine serious illnesses and lots of other stuff we take for granted. A lot of the time these folks weren't aiming directly at disease, they just thought that no human beings should live under such nasty conditions, and they were perfectly right. But...as living conditions improved, some diseases began a precipitous decline and others became much less dangerous.

A lot of the debate is about the importance of morbidity (disease incidence) versus mortality (deaths from disease). With diphtheria, for example, morbidity dropped steadily from the 1920s onward. By the time the vaccine became close to universal, incidence was minimal. The vaccine deserves a sliver of credit, no more. Measles is different. Incidence dropped a little, probably due to less crowding, but mortality went way down. By the time the vaccine became available, it was pretty rare for anyone to die of measles. So the vaccine can take credit for reducing the morbidity (incidence) but had only a moderate effect on mortality.

Hope this clarifies things a bit. It does irritate me when vaccines are given credit for the amazing achievements of people like Jacob Riis and Jane Addams.

And here is a pretty funny article from insidevaccines on measles:
http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/05/20/for-the-good-of-the-herd/

I love the poster: "Stop Measles with Just One Shot"
They sure missed the boat with that one :)

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress
Avatar for suschi
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
In reply to: not_a_princess
Wed, 12-17-2008 - 11:42am
Well said.


If you're questioning vaccines or not vaccinating at all, stop by the Non-Vaccine Support Board that I proudly host: http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ppnonvaccine


“Never attribute to conspiracy


that which can be explained by greed and incompetence”


But never assume that the greedy and incompetent,


-- through stupidity or willful ignorance --


are not unknowingly part of a deeper conspiracy.

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-09-2008
In reply to: not_a_princess
Sun, 12-07-2008 - 1:15pm

Your

Rands

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-18-2007
In reply to: not_a_princess
Sun, 12-07-2008 - 1:07pm

<<<(Offit PA et al: Pediatrics, January, 2002, pp. 124-129)>>>


Paul Offit has demonstrated conflict of interest that, sorry to say, precludes any authority on the topic the man might have in my eyes.

Avatar for suschi
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
In reply to: not_a_princess
Sat, 12-06-2008 - 1:31pm

Show me just one long term study on the safety AND effectiveness of giving a child 50 doses of vaccines by school age, just one study.

Thank you.


If you're questioning vaccines or not vaccinating at all, stop by the Non-Vaccine Support Board that I proudly host: http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ppnonvaccine


“Never attribute to conspiracy


that which can be explained by greed and incompetence”


But never assume that the greedy and incompetent,


-- through stupidity or willful ignorance --


are not unknowingly part of a deeper conspiracy.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-25-2008
In reply to: not_a_princess
Sat, 12-06-2008 - 1:00pm

Kids can handle the amount fo vaccines - it HAS been proven:


iVillage Member
Registered: 10-25-2008
In reply to: not_a_princess
Sat, 12-06-2008 - 10:24am

I survivied CP and Measles just fine.


This ratinonale is ridiculous - I had CP and survived too. I also have scars all over my body and a hearing loss in one of my ears because my eardrum burst from the pressure of the CP blisters in my ears. Your immune system is not the same as your childs


Here is a great question: Alot of us did not wear seatbelts when we were growing up and we survived. Are you now not going to buckle your child into a safety seat because you did not use one and survived?

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-09-2008
In reply to: not_a_princess
Mon, 12-01-2008 - 10:25am

You asked the million dollar question - and is a question that both sides can pose. Either side can find something to support their position. All of it's out there.

Rands

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-09-2008
In reply to: not_a_princess
Mon, 12-01-2008 - 10:19am
Wonderfully stated.
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Rands

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-09-2008
In reply to: not_a_princess
Mon, 12-01-2008 - 10:11am
Hi Dee - I just had to comment on your post. I'm glad you're in this discussion - I find your thoughts/writings rationale and civil. You are completely correct that most base their decision (on anything) on past experience, which I don't think is wrong either way. I also believe many base their decisions on fear, which can also go in either direction. Fortunately, in this day and age we have a lot more access at our fingertips to aide in our decisions. I'm sorry you had the experience you had coming to the US - you are correct, it was unneccessary. Glad to have you here, and FWIW, I believe you inherited a great deal of your family's latter traits. ;-)
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Rands

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