If everyone stopped vaxing, would all

Avatar for lucky30605
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
If everyone stopped vaxing, would all
44
Fri, 04-25-2003 - 7:23am
these diseases come back into our society? If so, why is it fair for some to stop vaxing? Doesn't that simply minimize unvaxed kids' risks of reactions to the vaccines while NOT raising thier risk of contracting the diseases because the majority of the kids ARE vaxed? In other words, are those of us who vax doing the unvaxers work FOR them and taking the risks FOR them since OUR kids won't spread these diseases to theirs?

I guess I have always had a fairness thing going when it comes to vaxing. We should ALL do it together. We should ALL be in the fight and not just let SOME kids do the front line fighting.

I would like to hear from the non vaxers on this one. And please don't link me to other articles. I want to know what YOU think. Do you think that non vaxing is fair to those of us who DO choose to take the risk of vaxing? Your children are getting OUR children's protection.

JMHO,

Lucky

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-29-2003
Mon, 04-28-2003 - 4:12pm
"Does this mean it is ethical when a vaccinated child passes along a VPD to someone who in turn suffers a significant complication? Ethical only because the child was vaccinated? "

Ok, I keep hearing this about how my vaccinated kids give other kids VPDs...First of all from what I have read and I have asked these are dead cells NOT live. Now, I am sorry but in NO WAY do I believe for ONE second that my vaccinated children have given or could give anyone a VPD.

However I do know that MY child got a VPD because A)A young teen mom did not care about her child enough to go take her to a doctor. TRUST me you would have agreed. B) Children over age 7 and adults are not being vaxed for Pertussis. Well great, sure older children and adults CAN make it through Pertussis, its the babies that can not. My child was too young to be vaxed. NO I did not know taking my child out to WALMART at a week old would almost kill her! What I do know now is Yea my kid needs to stay home. YET I also have to worry about WHO comes in the house or WHO my DH has come incontact with or even my DDS!!! Do I tell my DH and kids " no dont come around the baby dont know what you have since you are not vaxed for Pertussis!"???????

I also do not think that anyone here is being selfish...certainly never came from me. What I think is that Yes there are parents who think their child had a severe reaction to a vax...be it most of the time its from 10 or more years ago...and to my knowledge the vaxes have changed, but we are talking about parents who choose NOT to vax because they are scared. WHy are they scared? Well because lets face it ALL these nonvaxing sites for one. I garrentee that if noone had any access to the internet and just wanted to meet with a parent whos child had an adverse reaction to a vaccine.. they would not find too many to scare them from getting their child vaxed...JMHO!

Do I think parents have a right to do with their kids as they wish? Yes I do...can not nor would I tell a parent what to do with their kids. Do I have to like what they do with their kids? NO, and neither do any of you. I think that parents should always be informed. I try to be anyways lol


God bless

Carla

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-20-2003
Tue, 04-29-2003 - 10:30pm
crazyinny-this isn't directed at you. i'm just chiming in to the general debate!

OH BOY! are we really under the impression that the reason that we don't see polio and diphtheria anymore in this country is because we are still vaccinating against them. do we really think the little virus' are flying around trying to find a host but can't get through because everyone is wearing there armour(innocculations)? PLEASE!!!!!! you must not realize just how many children/adults there are without this so called protection. if the diseases are still a threat, why don't all of the children/aduts who are not "protected" get these diseases? why not even a few? it's my understanding that we haven't seen diphtheria in something like 46(?) years (that's what our pedi told me). it's also my understanding that the only cases of polio in the US are directly related to the vaccine. my guess is that if we stopped vaccinating for those two diseases, they wouldn't suddenly rear their ugly heads. we would probably see a rise in measels, mumps, and rubella for a while if we dicontinued those but i do believe it would be for the "greater good". (BTW, since when do we get to decide what the greater good is anyway? do you REALLY mean for the *what i think is right for me cause?*")

arrrgh, this "i vaccinate my child to protect others and the immune compromized" argument is sooooo NOBLE of you all! wouldn't it be more responsible to not expose those in question to your sick child if there is any doubt. do you make your children wear masks when they have colds? you know a simple cold could turn into something really ugly for an immune-compromized person!

look, i admit, this stuff heats me up. but NO, i'm not a conspiracy theoriest. i don't have anything to prove to scientists or doctors, i appreciate them to a healthy extent. if we were in a situation where we were really threatened by a deadly disease that was getting out of control, i would consider a safer alternative if one was available. but it does seem that we have really let this thing get out of control to the extent that it is. we seem soooo scared of our environment. it makes me sad.

in fact,i think you should all stop vaccinating for Measels, mumps,rubella, polio,and diphtheria because it makes me sad and i think it would be best if me and the other non- vaxers out there were not sad.( for those w/o a sense of humor, that last comment was a joke)-georgia
Avatar for alstonlove
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-29-2003
Wed, 04-30-2003 - 12:10am
Strange how Scarlet fever also seemed to have vanished..along with the other childhood illnesses...but there is no vaccine for it....hmmmmmm....My pediatrician also told me that the majority of the cases of Pertussis she sees are in FULLY vaccinated children..she says the virus is being forced to mutate due to the vaccine and this is from a woman who is completly pro-vacc! I for one have vaccine damaged children...I feel my kids are at more of a risk from being around fully vaccinated children as not all of the vaccs containe dead cells.. chicken pox and the MMR are 2 that are LIVE cell vaccines and they get secreted into the childs stools and urine for weeks afterwards...this was also told to me by a pediatrician...not an anti-vacc site! Your vaccinated child CAN give my non-vacc child the measles, chicken pox......and since most children end up sick with colds etc immediatly following their shots (vacc's weaken the immune system for several days~ another Pediatrician info) your child can also expose my healthy non vacc child to a respiratory illness etc. My pediatrician also told me that babies who have been recovering from Whooping cough can develop acute respiratory illness if they are subjected to the vaccine for it after they have ALREADY caught it naturally...it is just too much on their bodies...My third child never had whooping cough naturally...but the vaccine damaged his lungs and he had TONS of breathing problems until we realized what was happening and STOPPED the remaining boosters of the DTaP shots... he has a medical exemption now for all shots..doctor recognized it as a vaccine reaction...funny though how every since he stopped getting vaccinated with in 6 months he was recovering and has NEVER had another breathing treatment or breathing trouble since! He is still catching up growth wise..as is my second child who also had vaccine damage. I am not basing my choices out of fear...I am not afraid of the diseases or the vaccines...Neither choice is good to me.. but after 6 yrs of reasearch I feel the safest way for my children is no shots...we do organic eating as much as possible and do try to reduce exposure to harmful things...build up the natural God given immune system etc... I am not totally closed off to vaccinating my children...but the benefit of the shot HAS to outweigh the obvious risk...before we would ever vaccinate them again. Maybe I am selfish in some of your minds...but when you have done as much reasearch as I have and have also witnessed first hand the effects of vaccines, you tend to lean more towards the side of caution and away from the blanket idea that vaccines are all that wonderful of an invention.

Blessings~ Kellina

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Wed, 04-30-2003 - 4:49am
"this "i vaccinate my child to protect others and the immune compromized" argument is sooooo NOBLE of you all!"

LOL Yes, sanctimony is alive and well here!! I don't believe for a single second that ANY parent here, if they truly believed that a public 'health' measure was not in the best interests of their children, would go ahead and subject their children to it anyway "for the good of the whole" Vaccinating their children just allows some pro vaxers to imagine they somehow walk higher ground than those of us who believe good health can never be conferred by frequent injections of junk into our children's bodies.

Jan

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-19-2003
Wed, 04-30-2003 - 7:47am
First off- scarlet fever still exists, but luckily- it can be treated with antibiotics now, and no longer poses such a big threat. BTW, IS there a vaccine for scarlet fever? LOL.

You say:<>

PUlease do NOT presume to speak for others- I have researched the vaccines extensively since 1988, when my first son suffered severe brain damage to DTwP. He died 6 years later. However, the 3 children I still have are vaccinated successfully, and I REMAIN supportive of most vaccines on the market. I can understand your POV as it relates to your situation w/personal experience, but I really dislike to see people trying to discredit otheres' POV if they do not have first-hand experience with vaccine damage. I do, and my opinion is diametrically opposed to yours.

~Miki

Avatar for tiggernminnie
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 04-30-2003 - 10:30am
I am not as eloquent as many of you, don't have the "links" to back me up but here is my 2 cents, FWIW.

My mom had breast cancer, discovered at 39, metastisized at 40 and she passed on at 50. Over her ten year battle with this disease she ran into some MAJORLY bone headed drs. The ones who sent her home after her initial surgery with no followup (chemo or radiation)..."it's okay, we got it all, don't worry about it...." the ones who misdiagnosed her pnemonia in the hospital as cancer in her lungs and told her she had three months to live.... I could go on.

The thing my mom told me again and again was that if nothing else I can learn from her having this dreadful thing happen to her was to question my drs. Mom grew up in a time when your drs and teachers knew everything...whatever they said, that was true and you listened and did what you were told. Drs don't know everything. It is NOT their ultimate responsibility for my, or my family's health, it's MINE.

Now I'm not discounting the medical profession, not in the least. Mom's drs kept her alive for 10yrs which was a wonderful thing. I just don't take everything a dr says as gospel. I do my research, I speak to my dr, listen to their take on it...THEN MAKE MY OWN CHOICE based on all the facts.

Is is difficult to separate fact from speculation, YES. But you can do it. You can look at information in a critical way. And just because things are cited from scientific papers, doesn't mean that they are "fact" either. It totally depends on HOW the research was done. So I'm not just skeptical of "websites" but journal articles as well....everything is read in a critical way.

That all said, I did my research, before dd was born and I was in my early pregnancy, I researched pregnancy, labor and delivery. Figured out that "I" wouldn't be happy with a traditional ob/gyn in a hospital setting and instead went with a freestanding birth center and midwives. This worked more with my manner of approaching health care as a PARTNER instead of a RECIPIENT.

Later in my pregnancy I started researching vaccines. Discovered that either I was going to kill my child by NOT vaxing or kill her if I did. Not much middle ground out there. Makes it so you have to read through things critically.

In the end we vax, BUT not on schedule...almost and we are delaying some vaxes. I totally passed on the Hep B for now. We will readdress it when dd is a preteen. Through her first year (she's now 21mo) dd received every other scheduled vax but only one at a time...with one week intervals between them after her visits. She didn't get Prevnar on time because it wasn't available.

After she hit 1yr that's when the big guns come out. MMR and CP. To be honest she's 4mo shy of 2 and I still can't decide. I'm not worried about autism..not primarily although I'm not thoroughly convinced there isn't a link....the studies for and against it are both poorly done. I'm more concerned about the possible link betwen the interaction between measles and mumps and gut diseases. Both dh and my bil have colitis. I DON'T want to make dd MORE suseptible to it than she already is. If MMR was available separately I would give it to her in a second, with 1yr intervals between measles and mumps. But Merck keeps dragging it's feet, yes we'll release it but don't know when. GRRR. So for now, I'm pretty much decided that I'll give her the separate ruebella vax and pass on measles and mumps.

This is what works for US based on our family history and my research. For dd, IMO it would be safer for her to possibly be exposed to measles or mumps naturally, than to get the vax and possibly condemn her to a lifetime of colitis.

The CP vax I'm still on the fence on. I don't like that it may not give life long immunity, may or may not make them MORE suseptible to shingles, or may protect them....there are way too many unknowns for me to feel comfy. I think I may hold off until just before she starts school and reassess then.

So there is MY two cents. Why I am and am not vaxing and how I used research WISELY to make informed decisions.

HTH

Christine

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-30-2003
Wed, 04-30-2003 - 1:35pm
Hi to all

I have three sons - two that were vaccine-damaged are now slowly recovering. My third son who is almost 2 years old is unvaccinated and my husband and I have decided never to vaccinate again any member of the family.

Vaccines have contained mercury and now contain propane derivatives (trametamol), formaldehyde, aluminum and the antibiotic, neomycine. I strongly suggest anyone who is involved in this debate to read the package inserts from a few vaccines available on www.whale.to - for the sake of information. At the very least, ask your doctor for a copy of the package insert - and see if you can actually get it!

I don't have anything against vaccination - I am biologist and frankly exposing people to weakened versions of various viruses and bacteria doesn't bother me.

I don't vaccinate because the formulation of vaccines relies on the use of toxic materials. Why? Authorties claim that these toxins are in quantities small enough that it is theoretically impossible that they cause harm. I personally would rather analyse the studies that prove this assertion than take their word. Where are they?

As far as what is ethically or morally right...

I am a mother and I am doing my best to do what I think is right for my children. I think that's ethically correct - and normal.

As far as what danger my unvaccinated toddler represents to the vaccinated members of society...

If vaccines work, then my child poses no threat to the vaccinated members of society. In fact, my child is technically in danger from freshly vaccinated children. If you read the package insert from the polio vaccine it states very clearly that infants shed the virus in their stool up to 2 weeks after vaccination and that care-givers should be aware of this. It goes on to say that in fact this possible exposure is in fact an advantage - in my own words a kind of "two for one" deal.

I think society just has to accept that some people will not vaccinate and cannot be forced to vaccinate against their will.

However, non-vaccinators have to recognise that there may be a price to pay for their choice - they may not be able to enter their unvaccinated children into certain day care centres and schools. That is the right of society to exclude these children - if it wishes.

So far, I haven't had any problem placing my kids (the older boys have not been vaccinated since their first birthdays) but I am prepared for the possibility that I may have to homeschool someday. It would be worth it for the sake of the health of my kids.







iVillage Member
Registered: 03-31-2003
Wed, 04-30-2003 - 2:08pm
My son recently had a case of scarlet fever. He was treated with antibiotics and is fine. He recovered within days and frankley the entire episode was no worse than when he's had strep throat (of which I belive scarlet fever is related).

For someone who has "researched extensively" vaccines and thier risks/benefits, If find it odd that you

1)think there was a vaccine for scarlet fever and

2)think scarlet has been eradicated by said vaccine

As far as I know, there has never been a vaccine for scarlet fever and it does still exists and in fact is not uncommon.

I also take offense to your remark "but when you have done as much reasearch as I have and have also witnessed first hand the effects of vaccines, you tend to lean more towards the side of caution and away from the blanket idea that vaccines are all that wonderful of an invention"

I have done alot of research as well. I also have a brother whose child did have a signifigant adverse reaction to the DTaP vaccine. I, however, came to the conclusion that vaccinating my children was in fact leaning on the side of caution, as you put it, as has my brother with his other children. I do not have a blanket idea that vaccines are a risk free wonderful invention. I am aware of the risk and am also aware of the benefits and the risks of the diseases for which I am vaccinating.

Just because your research led you to one conclusion, doesn't mean people with opposing opinions haven't done just as much if not more research.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-31-2003
Wed, 04-30-2003 - 2:28pm
As a pro vaxer, it was encouraging to hear that there are non vaxers willing to accept and agree that their position on vaccinating may lead to schools and day care centers not accepting their children. If I were in your shoes and two of my children had indeed been damaged signifigantly by previous vaccines, then I might do just as you've done and not vaccinate any more of my children. I would, as you have, accept that I may have to homeschool my children and I would definatly not put them in public schools by taking a religious exemption when my religion does not specifically state that I should not vaccinate my children.

I do have one thing to add to your statement:

**If vaccines work, then my child poses no threat to the vaccinated members of society**

Pregnant women who have not been vaccinated and newborns are at greatest risk when exposed to unvaxinated children. Unvaxed children can easily expose these people to rublella, pertusis etc in church, at the grocery store, doctors office, library etc. Rubella in a pregnant woman can cause horrible birth defects and there are cases of newborns catching pertusis and dying from it as well as suffering long term health complications from it. So although unvaccinated children may not pose a signifigant threat to the vaccinated members of society, they do pose a very real threat to non vaccinated members.

Good luck with your family, I hope your children continue to recover swiftly.

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-20-2003
Wed, 04-30-2003 - 4:01pm
wait a minute! UNvaccinated children are NOT disease carriers! If they have contracted a disease, and are exhibiting symptoms, then any responsible parent would not knowingly expose someone that is immune compromized. A big problem with parents who choose to vax is that they are under the impression that their children are definitely not going to contract these diseases. there are no guarantees. in fact, when there have been measels outbreaks in the US, sometimes over 50% are in fully vaxed kids! parents whose children are vaxed are less likely to look for symptoms of these diseases in their kids and in turn might expose others unknowingly. It baffles me that some of you actually think it is unsafe to be around unvaxed kids. The ones i know are actually the healthiest kids i know. No ear infections, colds(not AS many anyway), and when they do get sick they seem to recover more quickly! these are the kids i want mine around.-georgia