Should schools disclose whether some ...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-19-2003
Should schools disclose whether some ...
10
Tue, 08-26-2003 - 11:24am

Should schools disclose whether some kids are not vaxed & which diseases?



  • Yes, names & all
  • Yes, but only identified by which grades are affected
  • Yes, but only as an anonymous school-wide disclosure
  • Only in the event of an outbreak
  • No, it is a violation of privacy


You will be able to change your vote.


iVillage Member
Registered: 07-11-2003
Thu, 08-28-2003 - 3:52pm
Not only would it be a violation of privacy, but it would also infringe on our freedom of religion! If there were an outbreak of some sort of disease in a school, all that needs to be known is just that. What good would any additional information on any certain kids (who may not even get ill) do anyhow? Perhaps then, some extremists can burn a cross on the unvaccinated child's front lawn (lol) or at the very least, the family can be subjected to dirty looks from others parents and teachers for the years following the outbreak, even if that child was never even sick. marnie no no nooooo...
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-19-2003
Thu, 08-28-2003 - 6:13pm
Marnie- permit me to quote my earlier post on the "Robbed of my Choice" thread:

http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=iv-ppvaccinedb&msg=2963.35

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(This is the original poster sepaking here) << KNOW she lied because I asked her during the interview prior to hiring her: have all the children in your daycare been vaccinated. She responded with YES. She did not respond with "I do not know". Thus she lied. She told me when I confronted her that she had not in fact ever bothered to ask. If she had simply stated this then I would have known that she did not know. >>

(Now me) If a non-vaxer wants the right to use exemptions to vaccines- fine. If they want privacy of medical records- fine. But for any parents, it should be THEIR right to inquire & be answered HONESTLY if any children there (no names, yada yada) are not fully vaccinated & WHICH diseases. They then also have CHOICE-- as to whether their children attend the daycare/pre-school/school. Going to these institutions also usually involves more than dropping off the child & picking them up. Many times, at our school, I volunteer & most Moms bring along baby in a carrier. We have school plays & programs, open houses, to which young siblings are often present. There are numerous opportunities for those too young to have received full courses of immunizations to come into contact w/disease carriers. Children in the younger years often swap body *fluids* a heck of a lot more than the adults do with the children. Observe babies mouthing a toy, dropping it & the next baby has eagerly awited THAT coveted rattle- and in the mouth it goes. Kids drool, sneeze & cough without covering their mouths more than adults, don't wash hands as often unless prompted- and thus have more opportunity to trade germs.

So, I believe in inforemd choice. It should be required to make known which grades/rooms have unvaccinated children & for which diseases.

And before we go into the pertussis & older kids/adults transmission route- I know- I EAGERLY await the adult pertussis booster & hope it is mandated- perhaps for a driver's license ; -) and definitely for health insurance~ >>

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-11-2003
Fri, 08-29-2003 - 4:28pm
Ok Miki, I agree that a lie is a lie.......

>>have all the children in your daycare been vaccinated. She responded with YES. She did not respond with "I do not know". Thus she lied.<<

But, if you think about it, its common sense that not every child in a day care is going to be fully vaccinated, since most babies attending wouldn't even be old enough for their first series of shots, right?

>>But for any parents, it should be THEIR right to inquire & be answered HONESTLY if any children there (no names, yada yada) are not fully vaccinated & WHICH diseases.<<

Then next time you walk into playland or even a grocery store, you might as well insist on a check in sheet and proof of vaccinations before you allow your child to play or even to sit in a shopping cart.

>>They then also have CHOICE-- as to whether their children attend the daycare/pre-school/school.<<

You can also have choice to never go anywhere public, never have your children join any sports or organizations, never go to museums, carnivals, waterparks...ect. ect. It sounds a bit ridiculous to me.

>>Going to these institutions also usually involves more than dropping off the child & picking them up. Many times, at our school, I volunteer & most Moms bring along baby in a carrier. We have school plays & programs, open houses, to which young siblings are often present. There are numerous opportunities for those too young to have received full courses of immunizations to come into contact w/disease carriers. <<

So too are there numerous opportunities for children to come into contact with disease carriers in going to any institution or public place of any sort. So lets all just lock ourselves up in our homes and on the chance that we might come into contact with a person who is not vaccinated...can you see my point?

>>Kids drool, sneeze & cough without covering their mouths <<

This can happen anywhere, not just in school settings.

>>It should be required to make known which grades/rooms have unvaccinated children & for which diseases. <<

Once again, what good would it do? You can walk into Walmart tomorrow and expose your kids to a number of unvaccinated people.

>>- I EAGERLY await the adult pertussis booster & hope it is mandated- perhaps for a driver's license ; -) and definitely for health insurance~ <<

That sounds very threatning to me. It would most certainly be a violation of my constitutional rights. marnie (nice to debate with you again Miki)

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-19-2003
Sat, 08-30-2003 - 10:27am
As I have pointed out, daycares & schools are places where germs are much more intimately exchanged than in a carrier at the supermarket, wouldn't you agree?

I hold that, an anonymous "Grade 7 is not fully vaxed for measles this year." or "Room 8 in the day care is not fully vaxed for Pertussis" offers ALL parents choices. It violates no one's privacy when stated in such a manner.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-11-2003
Sat, 08-30-2003 - 1:15pm
Okay, wait, I just thought of something. Now I haven't been here for a while and I can't really remember your take on this but.....if there was an unvaccinated kid in your kid's class, what would you have to worry about anyhow? If vaccines are effictive in warding off disease then the kids who are vaccinated have no reason to worry. It is the unvaccinated kids who would be threatened by a vaccinated child who was a nonsymptomatic carrier. If vaccines are really not so effective in keeping disease at bay, why bother even getting them? I'm just trying to understand your lodgic Mik.

>>As I have pointed out, daycares & schools are places where germs are much more intimately exchanged than in a carrier at the supermarket, wouldn't you agree? <<

I agree that they may be exposed to a certain child for a longer period of time, yes...but kids have just a good chance on picking something up in the toy isle. Just the other day, as a matter of fact, a little girl sneezed right on my 5yr. old at Toys r us. We go to playland occasionally and it is only occasional because of the time I found human feces up in the tubes and an other time I went in and it smelled so strong of urine.....Think of public parks, swimming pools, beaches, sports, independent classes, OH... and even school buses! You may know if there are any kids in your child's class who are not vaccinated but you might as well find out if there are any kids on your child's bus who aren't then also.

>>I hold that, an anonymous "Grade 7 is not fully vaxed for measles this year." or "Room 8 in the day care is not fully vaxed for Pertussis" offers ALL parents choices. It violates no one's privacy when stated in such a manner.<<

Well then, you best make sure that grade 7 doesn't merge together with your child's grade at recess or during an assembly or at lunch time or even during bathroom breaks. And room 8 in the day care best not ever get together with room 9 for play time or snacktime. A vaccinating parent does have choice, you can 'choose' to vaccinate your child and put them in school - or homeschool, if you feel there is a chance on the vaccine being noneffective. A nonvaccinating parent 's choice is threatened because they might be forced to homeschool or even forced to vaccinate. True, it doesn't violate anyone's privacy when 'stated' like you said, but is it really gonna do you any good to know there's a kid somewhere in the school, somewhere in the 5th grade, somewhere in your child's class, that's not vaccinated? So what if you know there are 10 children in the 8th grade who are not vaccinated are you going to pull your kid out of that school or something? I sense you're just looking for peace of mind, I think most all parents strive for that. but then, where do you draw the line? And shouldn't vaccinating your child in itself, give you peace of mind? If not completely, then maybe you could consider the opposing position...... marnie

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-19-2003
Sun, 08-31-2003 - 10:36am
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If you read my post again (and I know it's long- I tend to run on a bit, LOL), you will see that I am covering the range from daycare up through schools. Kids in daycare mingle with infants & toddelrs too young to have gotten all the vaccines yet. The kids who are at risk in the schools are the younger siblings who are there during school hours for programs & parties & extra curricular activities. There is also the unvaccinated children who cannot vaccinate due to medical contra-indications. And also, a small percentage of children with whom the vaccines did NOT confer immunity. Disclosure helps ALL parents make choices- even those who DON'T vaccinate.

Now, on a personal note: my kids are 13yrs, 4yrs & 2yrs. When they go to school, I don't give a thought to vaccine status FOR THEM. I worried for THEM when they were babies & were NOT fully vaxed with complete series yet. It's the OTHER kids' health I address now. And just like how those who worry about vaccines like to *get the word out* in order to help out other kids, so do I, from my own POV.

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Great points! But shopping can be done while they are in school ; -) (Sorry, that was snarky & I apologize, LOL) School is mandatory. And I don't generally let my kids down on the floor of a store until they are well past 3yrs old anyway(vaccinated!) I never took my kidsa s infants IN stores much before 6 months old- so I could control that as well.

Now Playland- I just don't DO those. They are rather gross, and so- my kids have never gotten sick from indoor community play places. They too, are not mandated for childhood, and can be perceived as a "Let Buyer Beware" sort of deal. Parks- outdoors- much less likely to get sick. Swimming pools- chlorine. No more OPV, not a worry excepting fopr warts & fungal diseases. Answer: pool shoes! School bus- good point. Forgot that as we never use them. But, that could be answered through a similar disclosure. Perhaps it would have to be a school-wide disclosure. (That also answers the points in the first half of your next paragraph)

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It gives choice to the parent who may want to bring in goodies for her 5th grader's Valentines' Party & be Head Parent. She might decline on the volunteering if she has a 9 month old & cannot be sure to have a babysitter. She might find a babysitter for a School Assembly, Band Concert, etc. It EMPOWERS her to exercise her choice to protect her own children in the best way she can, since she has more valuable information on which to base it. It does NOT violate privacy. Exemptions will stand based on the laws afforded them in the first place.

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LOL, for my kids- my mind is as peaceful as it can be. I am, like you, looking at the bigger picture- one that encompasses other children as well. Same as you- we just get there by way of opposing sides of the circle. But, no doubt, we both are concerned with children's health.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-11-2003
Thu, 09-04-2003 - 11:45am
Still, to me it sounds as if what you are proposing would add additional pressure on parents who choose not to vaccinate. It would be unfair to impose this on people.

>>The kids who are at risk in the schools are the younger siblings who are there during school hours for programs & parties & extra curricular activities. <<

Are we then going to have to start policing all institutions and public places? My answer to parents with this concern is not 'to monitor every single person who is vaccinated or not', but to just keep your infant who is to young for vaccinations out of schools, out of resturants, out of hospitals, and out of all the hundreds of other places they can pick up an illness.

>>School is mandatory. <<

You can always homeschool.

>>She might decline on the volunteering if she has a 9 month old & cannot be sure to have a babysitter. - It EMPOWERS her to exercise her choice to protect her own children in the best way she can<<

Then she has "choice". She can either find a sitter or stay home.

>>It does NOT violate privacy. Exemptions will stand based on the laws afforded them in the first place. <<

What you are proposing is state control. Monitoring vaccinations in this manner is on the border of fascism. Besides, the certainty of unvaccinated infants contracting diseases from older unvaccinated children is a imagined scenario. If this were true we would have epidemics among unvaccinated infants and children who are exposed to the unvaccinated community. (if it were so, I would think every infant would be at great risk of contracting disease, and we would see thousands of infants dying every week, but it just isn't so). If this is a danger how come it has never happened to the very large unvaccinated population (including young infants) in epidemical proportions as of yet? marnie

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Thu, 09-04-2003 - 12:58pm
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How is providing general information to the public fascist?

Fascism: any program for setting up a centralized autocratic national regime with severly nationalistic policies, exercising regimentation of industry, commerce, finance, rigid censorship and forcible suppresion of opposition.

How does that fit? She is not proposing that it be a state law that all children are vaccinated or removed from school. She is not advocating that the state lie about or change vaccination records (censorship) to make everyone feel happy- quite the opposite in fact. No where is the claim made that if you don't vaccinate you are un-American. In fact quite the opposite. While most pro-vaxers don't agree with your choice, we don't deny you the right to choose. And you certainly aren't sent to jail for not providing information.

Perhaps by your statement you meant that monitoring vaccinations was one step towards fasicst controls like those I mentioned above. I fail to see how. Free information and the exchaning of ideas is the foundation of an open and democratic society. I don't want mine or my child's medical records out there for everyone to read, but I see NO reason why general information about the vaccination status of a community or a school can't be exchanged. Do you object to Census data being compiled to provide for better schools, roads and infrastructure for your community? The same kind of general information is used for these studies. Specific names and details are deleted and the over-all picture used as a reference.

I'll defend to the death your Constitutional rights- but those rights are not threatened here.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-19-2003
Thu, 09-04-2003 - 2:17pm
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No, actually Marnie- I've come to the point where I support philosophicals exemptions for all states. Combine the right to exempt with anonymous disclosure of school vaccination status & everyone wins. Everyone has choice.

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No, because schools are the only places where vaccines are mandated for attendance.


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Ahem- no. WE have paid taxes for over 25 years now. I WILL exericse my children's right to a public education. While vaccines are still mandated, the onus for disclosure should be born by all.

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She doesn't have enough inof to make a good choice yet.

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The states already mandate certain vaccines. Providing information and choice, OTOH, is more characterisitic of a democratic society.


iVillage Member
Registered: 07-11-2003
Fri, 09-12-2003 - 12:01pm
Sorry for the delayed response Miki, and this is for amycassandra too! Okay, about fasism, I meant fasism in the sense of an oppressive system whose intent is to control people from the top. You have to see this from the view point of someone who is being suppressed. I no longer vaccinate and I have experienced first hand, the subtle intimidation, pressure, and direct threats involved in mandating vaccines. These tactics are used to conform, condemn and bully my minority view point into the majority view point. If the state and school systems inforced this type of administration it would slope toward the view point of the majority which represents the influence of the corporate world, self interest groups, and industry which profits from and has vested interests in vaccines. This goverment stucture bows down to corporate industry enough as it is. What you are suggesting sounds like just one more bullet in the revolver. The majority wants to inforce their view on the minority, this is an old game. It's purpose and weapon is intimidation. marnie