Vax vs. Unvax study

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-18-2007
Vax vs. Unvax study
Thu, 03-12-2009 - 12:54pm

People have been requesting an epidemiological study with vaccinated and unvaccinated groups to determine the overall health effects. I'm fairly unclear on why the scientific community is opposed to this study. I mean, if the alleged hysteria over the safety and overall alleged bad effects of vaccines are so unfounded... then why not?

Why are animal doctors ahead of human doctors?


iVillage Member
Registered: 10-18-2007
Thu, 04-09-2009 - 11:44am


This was actually only a case study, so it didn't really prove anything. It has some problems as well.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-17-2005
Sat, 04-04-2009 - 4:08pm

"Did you know that the hep b vax has not been ruled out as a cause of SIDS?"

"70% Of SIDS cases have been shown to follow pertussis vaccination within three weeks."

From the "Vaccine Safety Manual".

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-17-2005
Sat, 04-04-2009 - 3:59pm

I need proof that the measles is deadly...cause even the CDC says that the measles is rarely fatal. Even when a death of a child who had measles DOES occur - it ain't the measles that killed the child. It was treatment of the measles, treatment of fever or the health of the child that caused the death...not measles. Otherwise me and everyone my age would be dead! And everyone older than me would be dead...well, they wouldn't have been here to even have children now would they?

People tend to forget that the vaccine was not available until AFTER our living conditions were improved and at the same time, the spreading of disease was reduced. If measles was so deadly then ask your doctor friends why their parents, grandparents and great grandparents didn't die of the measles. Maybe it had to do with less vaccines weakening their immune systems? Could it be that their immune systems are actually able to do the jobs they were designed to do???

Oh, and before you tell us all how deadly the chickenpox is, please be aware that my kids didn't die from chickenpox either, not even the UNVACCINATED one! But she got a mild case, unlike the horribly bad case that her VACCINATED brother got. Yeah, that's right a kid who got the chickenpox vaccine also got the chickenpox. How common is it? Well, we don't know. VAERS doesn't know either. Possibly because they don't want to know...of course the CDC pulls numbers out of a hat and reports THAT to you. Maybe there's a reason you AND YOUR DOCTOR FRIENDS should look into the CDC's reputation for reporting numbers that always have positive effects on vaccine sales. Maybe you all should ask yourselves who makes the country's decisions about vaccines and who do they work for and who's stock is making them rich...

The measles is NOT deadly. Attached is a CDC report from 1967. Notice that some 40+ years later and they STILL have not "eradicated" the measles. Perhaps it's not possible to eradicate the measles? What's that saying about idiots? They keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

Oh, but that's right...they DID get different results...their stock value went up and continues to climb, even in this economy!

I can't find any proven link that vaccines don't cause autism or other problems. I do, however, have first hand experience with a child who was born normal and after one shot began to have seizures that lasted a lifetime. They called it mental retardation back then but today it would be classified as Autism.

Have you ever read one single package insert from even one vaccine? When the manufacturer states in writing that the vaccine causes side effects - how can anyone take their child in for the *chance* that it may happen to them? All because they are duped into believing that these diseases are deadly and since the CDC employees all have financial stakes in vaccine sales, they will never tell the truth. They will NEVER create a study that is NOT designed for the outcome that best suits their wallets! Hence why we have no study of vaccinated VS unvaccinated children. And the fact that finding Autistic, Allergic, ADD, ADHD and Asthmatic kids is just a tad bit difficult...

Edited 4/4/2009 4:12 pm ET by crunchymomto2
iVillage Member
Registered: 04-09-2008
Thu, 04-02-2009 - 2:05pm

Hi Carrie - I'm not here to try and change your mind. I don't vacc my kids, but, I have no intention on trying (or even bothering) to have anyone else do the same - their/your choice.

I just wanted to point something out.


iVillage Member
Registered: 09-09-2007
Thu, 04-02-2009 - 12:30pm

Really? Your "doctor friends" are telling you that the measles is deadly? And you seem genuinely frightened of that fact. Hmmm. Do you live in Africa?

I just wonder if your friends are misinformed or if they are purposely misinforming the public and their friends.

And, because you've said it a number of times about the links between autism and vaccines let me just say a few things. You're right, there aren't any concrete scientific studies to shut up provaxers yet. Do you really think there ever will be? Do you know how much money the pharm companies make? I cannot imagine how much they spend on lobbying! Do you really think that any parent would intentionally give a child a vaccine if they said "yes, this might cause autism."??? For me, and many others, it's more of a common sense link. Children develop autism within hours of a vaccine. Children die within hours of a vaccine. SIDS cases happen within hours of a vaccine. Regression begins within hours of a vaccine.

Did you know that the hep b vax has not been ruled out as a cause of SIDS?

Did you know that there are thousands of deaths and thousands of cases of adverse effects in the vaers database that have yet to be investigated? And that's not even accurate because it's not a mandatory reporting system. There aren't good enough follow ups or requirements.

If someone said "Here, this pill might help you but it might also make you really sick and it might kill you. There's no concrete evidence that it will kill you but there's no concrete evidence that it won't. But it might help." Would you take the pill?


iVillage Member
Registered: 08-11-2007
Thu, 04-02-2009 - 10:20am
Thank you so much for the great information.

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-14-2005
Tue, 03-31-2009 - 11:55pm

Hi Carrie,

You can no longer get the MMR in seperate components.

Separate Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccines No Longer Available? What Can Parents Do?
Thursday, January 22, 2009

One of the most challenging and controversial parts of the alternative vaccine schedule is splitting up the MMR into three separate shots, spread out over a few years. The reasoning behind this idea is to expose a child to only one live viral vaccine at a time to allow the child’s immune system to better handle each vaccine and possibly experience fewer side effects. Although there is no medical evidence that this precaution is necessary or even useful, some parents, long before my book came out, have been skipping the MMR over fear of side effects. Some of these parents are more open to getting the separated vaccines. I present this option as a way to allow such families to vaccinate for these diseases. I don’t claim that it is the best way to go. I simply acknowledge it as an option.

Now, however, it seems that this option has been taken away from these families. The official word on Merck’s website is that these vaccines are not available for order. I’ve called Merck to ask if they are planning to start making more, but I can’t get anyone from the company to call me back. I have heard from numerous people and some news reports that Merck isn’t currently making the vaccine. I haven’t heard that they’ve decided to stop permanently, just that they aren’t producing any at this time. So, it’s pretty clear that, at least for the time being, there is no more to be had. It is probably safe to say that there won’t be any more for at least 6 months to 1 year. It is also possible that they won’t ever make the separate vaccines again.

This puts many parents in a difficult position. Some children have already received part of the series and are now left without a way to finish it without getting the entire MMR (and thus accepting extra doses of some components). Part of me wonders if Merck has stopped production as a way to force parents into an all-or-nothing decision. The AAP and CDC continue to insist on a “one size fits all” approach to vaccinating, without offering any suggested alternatives. Is this their way of forcing parents into the full MMR? I don’t know. The official word from Merck is that they need to devote all of the manufacturing capabilities to the full MMR and Chickenpox. They also state that the demand for the separate vaccines is so low that it doesn’t justify its production. One news story stated that the separate components only make up about 2% of the total MMR demand. Well, with 5 million babies being born each year in the U.S., that could be as many as 100,000 families searching for the separate vaccines each year. That would be a lot of unvaccinated children if these parents refused the full MMR.

One issue that I don’t understand is that the separate rubella vaccine is routinely used for adult women after they have a baby. Any new mom who doesn’t have rubella immunity is given the vaccine. If Merck stops making it, such women will have to get the full MMR, even if they still have good measles and mumps immunity.

The separate mumps vaccine also has its usefulness. During the outbreak of 2005/2006, many teens and adults needed a mumps booster to help contain the disease. If separate mumps vaccine isn’t made available for such events, the full MMR will have to be used. The same would be true if a measles epidemic occurs.

So, what can parents do? Parents hate to give their children an extra dose of a vaccine if it isn’t needed. You’ve gone to all the trouble to try to split it up, and now you are faced with having to give it all together anyway. I know it’s frustrating. One note of encouragement is that there is no known harm in getting an extra dose, other than the fact that you are taking the small risk of a side effect an extra time and the frustration of knowing the separate shot you gave earlier was all for naught. If a child already has some immunity to one of the diseases from a previous vaccine, I’ve never seen any research that shows a child is any more likely to react to a second dose compared to anyone just getting their first dose. I’ve seen no evidence that getting an extra dose is dangerous. I know it’s very small consolation, but I just mention this so that parents aren’t afraid to get any extra components of the MMR if they decide to.

Part of me wants to rally the nation’s parents in a campaign to insist that Merck begin making the shots again. Write your Senators, email Merck (politely!), refuse to get the full MMR! But that just isn’t responsible. Skipping the shots altogether leaves children at risk, the riskiest disease being measles. Of course, parents do have the option to skip the vaccine altogether. Even in states with mandatory vaccines laws, parents can still exercise a religious exemption (except for West Virginia and Mississippi).

But for those of you (which is most of you) who do want MMR protection, I will offer you some choices. There isn’t one right choice here. When it comes to MMR there is so much controversy that I don’t believe there is one clear option. So, I will lay out all the choices so you can think it through. Most people who are very pro-vaccine feel my MMR recommendations should more closely reflect the standard American vaccine schedule. Now that the separate M-M-R vaccines are no longer available, most such vaccine advocates are hoping that I will now begin recommending the MMR at the standard ages of 1 and 5 years. To these people I would like to point out that I don’t make absolute recommendations. I present options. That’s what I’m going to do here.

Here are all the options, depending on whether or not your child has received some of the separate components:


- Parents who feel confident in the safety of the MMR vaccine should go ahead and vaccinate at the recommended age of 1 and 5 years.

- Parents who were planning to do it separately because they have some worry about side effects should wait until a later age to get the full MMR. I suggest waiting until a child is either 4 years of age or enters school, whichever comes first. The reason for the 4-year recommendation is two-fold: 1. Many kids don’t enter school until age 4, so their risk of catching measles, mumps, or rubella is very low, and the risk that they would expose other kids if they got sick is very low, and 2. Most states only require one dose of mumps and rubella if that one dose is given at age 4 or older, because the vaccine works much better for older kids like this. Some states do require a second dose of measles, however. See the State Requirements section below.

- Parents who don’t feel comfortable leaving their children susceptible to these three diseases until age four, but want to delay it for at least a little while, can get the MMR at whatever age you feel most comfortable. If your toddler or young child is entering early preschool at age 2 or 3, you may want him to have the disease protection. If you get the MMR before age 4, your child would need a second dose around age 5 according to the regular vaccine schedule. This second dose is given because a small percentage of kids lose their immunity from the first dose and need a booster. From a health care cost perspective, it isn’t economical to test every child’s blood at age 5 to see which kids need a booster, then only give those kids a booster. So, the routine practice is to just give the two doses to everybody. If you don’t want to simply follow this routine 2-dose schedule, and instead want to try to get by with just one dose, you can do the one dose at any age, then get a blood test around age 5 to check immunity, then repeat the MMR if needed.

- When you do get the MMR, I would suggest getting it alone, without any other shots. You can pick any time in the vaccine schedule to do it. There is no exact time that I would place it into my Alternative Vaccine Schedule. It’s an individual choice for each parent. If you get the shot at 1, 2, or 3 years of age, you can then either get the booster at 5, or do blood testing to confirm immunity and skip the booster if your child is still immune to all 3 diseases. There is also the possibility that in a few years we will have separate M, M, R component vaccines again, and you can give a booster shot for only those diseases your child needs a booster for, based on the blood immunity results. If the separate shots are not available, and 1 or 2 parts of the first shot (but not all three) have worn off, it’s okay to get the full MMR again. Or, you could just leave your child susceptible to a disease. The choice is yours.

The risk of skipping or delaying the MMR
Although these diseases are rare, outbreaks can occur. I encourage you to re-read the MMR chapter to refresh your memory on these diseases. The riskiest disease is probably measles. While most kids weather the disease without problems, occasional complications do occur. The risk of suffering a fatality from measles is about 1 in 1000 to 1 in 3000 cases. The risk of suffering a non-fatal complication that requires hospitalization (such as pneumonia, dehydration, and a variety of others) is unclear, but is probably 1 in 100 to 1 in 300 cases. Many years have gone by in the U.S. without a measles fatality. I pray it stays that way.


This decision is easy. Either get the 5 year booster of MMR, or do a blood test around age 5 to check immunity and don’t get any more MMR if immune to all three diseases. If your child is only immune to 1 or 2 diseases, but not all, it’s OK to get a full MMR. Or you can wait for the separate vaccines to come out again.


Those of you who have already begun the process of separated MMR vaccines, you probably did so with two things in mind: You at least had some concern about MMR safety, and you felt comfortable to some degree with leaving your child susceptible to some of these diseases during the early years until all three doses were given. But now what do you do?

- If your child has already received 1 dose of rubella (but no mumps or measles yet), you either have to get the full MMR now or wait until 4 years of age and get it then. It all depends on how comfortable you are with leaving your child susceptible to mumps and measles. You can review the book information on mumps and measles to refresh your memory. Leaving a child open to measles is probably the riskiest of the three diseases. If you get the MMR at 4, you can verify mumps and measles immunity with a blood test about 6 to 12 months later if your state requires it, since your child only received one dose. If your state doesn’t require it, I wouldn’t bother with an immunity check since most kids get full immunity after just one dose given this late. See State Requirements below.

- If your child has already received 1 dose of mumps (but no rubella or measles), the same information applies as the previous paragraph. Rubella is extremely rare, and harmless to young children. Review the disease information in the book to remind yourself of the risk to pregnant women.

- If your child has received 1 dose of measles, but not mumps or rubella, then I suggest you wait until age 4 to do the full MMR. That will give your child the required 1 dose of mumps and rubella, and 2 doses of measles. I wouldn’t bother checking blood immunity levels in this instance – you are pretty well covered. Since rubella is harmless to young children, and mumps is virtually always harmless, it is generally safe to remain susceptible to these until 4, especially if not in school yet. However, you should fully inform yourself about the personal and public health risks of delaying these shots by reviewing those pages in the book.

- If your child has received 2 out of the 3 components already, it is not worth getting a full MMR prior to age four just to get protection from the third disease now, only to have to get another booster dose at age 5. Just wait until age 4 or 5 to get the full MMR, as long as you feel comfortable with the disease risk for a couple years for whichever vaccine hasn’t been given yet. See State Requirements below if you worry that your state laws may require you to get the shot sooner. If the third disease that you haven’t gotten the shot for yet is measles, I would just wait until 4 to get the full MMR dose.

- Technically you can get the full MMR as close as only 1 month after any doses of the separate vaccines. However, as a precaution I would suggest putting at least a few months between them if you move on to the full MMR


If you live in one of the 20 free states (these are listed on page 218 of the book) that allows parents to skip a vaccine for personal beliefs, and you chose to skip the MMR during infancy, I would suggest getting the MMR around age 4 or 5 when your child is going to have more exposure to other children and the general public. I wouldn’t bother with immunity blood testing – this one shot works very well in virtually all kids who get it late. If you want to skip the shot until the pre-teen years, it may be useful to check blood immunity around age 10 prior to the shot, since by that time your child will have been around many kids for many years and might have acquired some natural immunity. If your child does not have immunity to one or more diseases, you can either get the full MMR or separate components if they are available at that time.

If you live in one of the 30 states that have mandatory vaccine laws, and you don’t want to claim religious exemption, realize that this doesn’t mean you absolutely have to get the MMR at age 1 and 5 years. You only have to meet the state requirements by the time a daycare, preschool, or kindergarten is going to enforce it. So, this means that if you are worried about the MMR, you can delay it for a year or two (or more) until your child enters school. Most states only require one dose of mumps and rubella if given at age 4 or older (since getting the shot at this later age works much better). Most states, however, will require either 2 measles vaccines, or a blood test to verify immunity from just the one dose. I suggest getting a blood test 6 to 12 months after the shot to prove this immunity. If not immune to measles, a second dose may be required by your state. This may mean another full MMR if the separate shots aren’t being made yet. If you do need (or want) to get the full MMR at an earlier age (between age 1 and 3 years), I suggest you do it alone, without any other shots.


In the vaccine book I clearly state that vaccines are important, and that I believe the benefits outweigh the risks. Each vaccine can have a serious side effect, but in most cases this is rare. The MMR, however, is unique in that it is a triple live virus vaccine, and therefore has a more extensive list of possible reactions. These reactions mimic what the actual disease complications can be. Some of these reactions are very serious. Yes, the serious reactions are extremely rare, but it is a risk nonetheless. However, vaccinating for the MMR diseases is also a very important individual and public health concern. Measles will continue to increase if parents don’t vaccinate. Rubella may come back. The more people that don’t vaccinate, the more likely this is to happen.

I have presented the options here. It’s not based on what the right or wrong decision is. It all comes down to what you as a parent and individual believe about the safety of the MMR and the risks of the three diseases. Remember, my alternative vaccine schedule isn’t a reflection of what I believe all parents should do. It is a suggestion for parents who are more worried about vaccines than the average person, and want to vaccinate their child more carefully. Splitting the MMR was part of that approach, but now it’s not an option for the foreseeable future. If I was to have written my alternative vaccine schedule without the separate vaccines, it would probably look something like this: MMR at age one and five, with an asterisk that says if you are worried about a reaction to the MMR, wait until age 4 to get the first (and only) dose, or get it sooner if your child will be entering early preschool (and possibly need a booster dose around age 5 or 6).


I think that one of two things are going to happen:

1. Many angry parents are going to delay or skip the MMR vaccine (either out of protest against Merck or out of worry over side effects), and once the government notices this (as measles increases or reports on non-compliance grow) they will ask Merck to begin producing the separate doses again. Post-partum moms who need a Rubella shot, but refuse the full MMR, may add to this campaign. When outbreaks of measles and mumps do occur (and they will!), and the parents of any unvaccinated children refuse the full MMR (but make it known they would happily accept the single component vaccines), the government might take notice.


2. Only a small minority will skip the full MMR. Most parents who wanted the separate shots will go ahead with the MMR at the recommended age of 1 year, and enough children will be vaccinated so we don’t see any appreciable rise in measles, mumps and rubella. Merck won’t begin making the separate shots again.


Welcome to the board!

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-17-2005
Tue, 03-31-2009 - 10:41pm

My plan was once identical to yours. My son was born in 1999. I made sure that only one shot per visit was administered and only the ones I approved of. I did not allow any vaccines until after age 2 and I spaced them out very carefully. When my daughter came along in 2004 I learned that you can no longer get some of the vaccines separated. Some manufacturers refuse to make them any longer. Today, if your doctor can get a particular single vaccine then they will have to pay an arm and a leg for a small purchase.

My pediatrician told me that I would have to pay over $100.00 for the rubella vaccine and that was only if I could get the insurance to agree to pay for 80% - which they flat-out refused. Without the insurance it was gonna be unaffordable. That is when I began to do more research and then decided against all vaccines. I'm no longer that worried about the diseases if we get them...they aren't deadly, not in healthy children. Whooping cough is around right now and in my area - neither of my children got that vaccine since it was the one the doctors said caused my brother's severe autism.

Corrine has a beautiful smile!!!

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-11-2007
Tue, 03-31-2009 - 8:00pm

My daughter's vaccines have been and will continue to be mercury free.


iVillage Member
Registered: 04-09-2008
Fri, 03-13-2009 - 9:18am

It was interesting that they didn't anticipate those that didn't vacc. to not have a routine veterinarian. I'm only saying that because, is it plausible that because they didn't vacc there was no need to go to a veterinarian unless something was wrong with their dog? And if that be the case, then is it also plausible that the dog was either rarely sick, or never? (or injured).

I had two cats, neither vaccinated. One I put down when she was 20. I took her to the vets