What is it about vaccine reactions?

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-02-2009
What is it about vaccine reactions?
70
Mon, 01-12-2009 - 9:10am

I'm having a hard time figuring out something.

Point A: Obviously vaccines have some risks, or we wouldn't be hearing about parasites, i.e. non-vaxers, taking advantage of the virtuous, who undergo the RISK of having their children vaccinated to maintain herd immunity against disease. Right?

Point B: People who claim to have vaccine damaged children obviously vaccinated them, took the risk, and are enduring the consequences. So these people should be treated as heroes for herd immunity. Right?

Point C: However, in real life, vaccine damage is very likely to be dismissed. By doctors. By the program which is supposed to compensate the vaccine injured. In news stories. In medical journals. By CDC spokespeople. And in the online community it seems to be mostly either ignored or denied. Why?

Where I'm heading with this: the problem of the denial of vaccine damage has a lot to do with fueling the vaccine critics. Even parents whose children are vaccine damaged don't necessarily jump immediately and totally into the anti-vaccine camp. They are pushed there, gradually, but the discovery that they are considered to be the bad guys, even though they vaccinated and even though their children took the risk and even though they did their bit for herd immunity and a lot more. And other parents read these stories and see what happened and see who gets blamed and who doesn't.

So why the attempts to pretend that there is RISK but that this risk never results in any actual injuries?

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress

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iVillage Member
Registered: 08-20-2007
Tue, 01-13-2009 - 2:13pm

I can see where you are coming from and i have not doubted on these boards that there are injurys from vaccinations. I have asked about stats and no one seems to answer it. Though i do not think the internet is a good place to start hunting for answers for your child getting a illness/ diesease. Alot of people jump to there own conclusions, they search google, find websites that relate to there childs symptoms and straight away point the finger at that problem.


Where in some cases its just not that problem that has caused it.


girls
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-02-2009
Tue, 01-13-2009 - 5:51pm

Mummy, twice now I have linked to a detailed analysis of the disease statistics. You can read it if you want to, but it is tough reading. Basically, what the analysis shows is that the threat from the diseases is way exaggerated.

So, for the third time:

Part I: http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/06/16/where-do-they-find-these-scary-statistics/
Part II: http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/07/28/where-do-they-find-these-scary-statistics-part-ii/
Part III: http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/09/02/where-do-they-find-these-scary-statistics-iii-lets-make-a-few-assumptions-hepatitis-b/
Part IV: http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/10/03/scary-stats-iv-polio/

Robin, your apology accepted! Sorry if I sounded really grumpy, it turned out to be a cursed day all around.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-20-2007
Tue, 01-13-2009 - 8:00pm
girls
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-02-2009
Tue, 01-13-2009 - 9:52pm

Okay.

So looking at the second of the four articles I linked--

Diphtheria cases were going down every year from 1870 onwards. By the late 1930s they were down to under 20,000 cases per year. This was not due to the vaccine, by the evidence provided, but happened because of improved living conditions and nutrition. We can assume that the rates would have continued to drop significantly into the 1940s as living conditions continued to rise. The vaccine became commonly used during the 1940s. Since the trend was for dropping rates, even without vaccines, the vaccine can only be credited with a portion of any decrease, right?

However, the other article cited, without providing any evidence whatsoever, makes the claim that the U.S. would have over 200,000 cases of diphtheria every year if we stopped vaccinating and over 20,000 deaths.

What did this vaccine actually accomplish?

Why are medical journals publishing articles without providing evidence of their claims?

The data is available. The other article provides facts and figures and proper references.

Why should I trust a system that makes claims like that? The head of the CDC went on TV and cited those numbers, claiming that 33,000 children would die every year if we quit vaccinating. But over 20,000 of those deaths are based on...what exactly?

And the next two articles poke more holes in the numbers.

Goodness.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-20-2007
Wed, 01-14-2009 - 3:21am

I don't disagree with you at all.

girls
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-02-2009
Wed, 01-14-2009 - 8:46am

Thanks mummy.

This is why I get a bad feeling every time I read a claim about the wonderful things that vaccines have accomplished. In the case of diphtheria, the claim is fairly weak.

This is also the reason I think it is important to consider each vaccine and each disease and each individual. If the folks in charge of the vaccine program are putting out inflated numbers in one situation, how can you trust the rest of their numbers? If they are happy having a program that monitors and records a minuscule proportion of the vaccine reactions which may be occurring, can you trust their estimates on the safety of vaccines?

Let me lay this out.

Let us suppose that serious vaccine injuries occur only once in a million doses. So, if you had a million babies and each received one vaccine and only one vaccine, there would be a single baby who would either die or be seriously injured. However, if each baby got two doses of vaccines, the risk would double and one baby in every 500,000 would now be at risk. Four vaccines and the risk becomes one in every 250,000. Ten vaccines and it is one in 100,000. Twenty vaccines and it is one in every 50,000. And we aren't anywhere near the number of recommended vaccines yet...

Plus, there is the problem of synergy. Babies are being given 8 or 9 vaccines at a time these days. Only 4 or 5 shots, but some of the shots include 3, 4 or 5 different components. Prevnar, in its current version has 7. The CDC (or was it the FDA), admitted that the current schedule hasn't been clinically tested in full. Each vaccine added to the schedule is tried with some other vaccines, so you have some combos being examined, but not the complete schedule.

Further, the tests exclude children with health problems, so once they go out into the general population there are likely to be unpredicted reactions due to individual susceptibilities.

Lining it up: Each vaccine added to the schedule adds to the possible risk of reactions. Most reactions aren't reported, in my experience. Reactions are more likely in the general population than in the vaccine test groups, due to less screening for possible contraindications. Vaccines are not tested in the full mix, as they are actually being given.

I don't think my concerns about the vaccine program are unreasonable.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress
iVillage Member
Registered: 07-17-2005
Wed, 01-14-2009 - 11:10pm

"Further, the tests exclude children with health problems"

Oh but don't worry, when they begin to *calculate* the estimates of death --- you better believe they'll INCLUDE the children "with health problems".

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-02-2009
Thu, 01-15-2009 - 9:55am

Yep! If a child with immune problems or severe health problems or malnutrition dies in conjunction with measles, it is the measles that caused the death. Totally and completely. Got it.

So, to carry on with the thoughts in my previous post about the safety of vaccines: as I demonstrated, on a statistical level, each additional vaccine increases the risk to a child by a significant amount. So, if the disease in question is a minor one and death is unlikely, that particular vaccine is probably not worth the risk. A couple of good examples are mumps and chickenpox. Neither of those illnesses would cause a noticeable blip in the overall infant mortality and most of those deaths could be prevented by the right sort of care during the illness. The chickenpox vaccine could be effectively used if it were given only to children who were at risk of death if they got the disease, rather than the entire population (the Japanese used it that way and it worked really well). For mumps, the chances of death are roughly 11 per year, according to one study I read. Getting mumps in childhood takes care of the risk of sterility from having mumps as an adult. There was another study that found having mumps reduced the risk of ovarian cancer...but I don't know if I can find it.

Anyway, every time you drop a vaccine from the schedule you reduce the risk of reactions. Going through the schedule and pulling all the vaccines where the risk from the disease is minor would save a lot of children, honestly! And it would be a rational approach to vaccination, which would calm down a lot of parents who no longer trust the doctors.

Hopeless. Won't happen. There are plans to add a lot more vaccines to the infant schedule.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress
iVillage Member
Registered: 04-09-2008
Thu, 01-15-2009 - 2:28pm

This is a very good point and has been demonstrated many times, either via terms of "no causual link" to "coincidence" to "hiring of over 100 attorneys to fight parents seeking compensation".


I have to agree, and I don't mean that people want sympathy or anything of the like, but, they want to be acknowledged that they did take the risk, and the "rare" situation happened with an AE. Unfortunately, all the denials do nothing but fuel the fire.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 04-09-2008
Thu, 01-15-2009 - 2:30pm
I can't see any reasonable person doing this to anyone regardless of stat, but it doesn't seem to stop some that think everyone should be vaccinated to state the exact same thing to those that have had a previous experience with an AE, either directly or indirectly.
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Rands

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