Emrys

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-23-2004
Emrys
8
Thu, 09-14-2006 - 1:51pm

Emrys



  • boy
  • girl
  • unisex


You will not be able to change your vote.


iVillage Member
Registered: 10-27-2005
In reply to: belle_petite
Thu, 09-14-2006 - 6:00pm

I'm really surprised by the results favouring "girl"! I'm guessing most people have never heard of it and are treating it as a made-up name and judging based on sound. As someone of Welsh descent, with a strong knowledge of Welsh history and mythology, and currently learning the language at a university, I have to say I really, really cringe to think of Emrys on a girl. I also suspect that most people are not pronouncing it correctly when they judge the gender, but I'm not sure how to transcribe the vowel sounds because they don't exist in English. I'll think about it, try to come up with a phonetic rendering. I'm hoping you're asking because you're considering the name for a boy and are afraid it sounds too feminine, not because you're considering it for a girl. Emrys is all boy in my opinion.

Josie




Edited 9/14/2006 7:13 pm ET by josiedove
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-23-2004
In reply to: belle_petite
Thu, 09-14-2006 - 6:37pm

I have read that it is masculine. It does have a feminine sound to me. Someone suggested it to me for a girl and I'm just putting it out there to see how others view it. There are several names out there that people pronounce differently depending on where they're from or their background. I would pronounce Emrys as 'emm-riss' and I'm probably not the only one.

You must be getting me mixed up with someone else because I've never considered Lorelei before.

Terra.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-06-2006
In reply to: belle_petite
Thu, 09-14-2006 - 8:23pm

Oh, I love this name! It's all boy to me, since I think immediately of Myrddin Emrys, better known as Merlin. If you enjoy reading fun bits of history or Arthurian legend, google "Dinas Emrys," the welsh fortress where Merlin made his first important prophecy.

I admit, however, that if I didn't have this prominent male association, the name would sound very unisex to my very American ears. Either way, it's a strong choice.


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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-27-2005
In reply to: belle_petite
Thu, 09-14-2006 - 8:35pm

Oh my goodness, you're right, two completely different people whose posts I've been noticing and interested in for quite a while. I can't believe made that mistake... I plead exhaustion, I'm going on less than four hours sleep today.

Okay, drinking a much-needed cup of tea now, here is some background...

Emrys is a Welsh masculine name usually explained as a Welsh adaptation of the Greek Ambrosius ('immortal'), though there are theories of an earlier, native Welsh origin. In Geoffrey of Monmouth's 'History of the Kings of Britain' (c. 1135 AD), upon which almost all Arthurian legend is based, Myrddin Emrys is the figure who eventually became known as Merlin the magician. In this case, Emrys is a patronymic surname - in at least some versions of the story, Merlin/Myrddin is said to have been the illegitimate son of King Ambrosius, who was in turn the elder brother of Uther Pendragon, the father of Arthur. The question here is whether Emrys originated as an equivalent of Ambrosius, or did Monmouth or an earlier source adapt an existing Welsh name to that purpose (Monmouth was not particularly careful in how he transcribed and adapted names from earlier material).

Y is the only letter in Welsh that can make more than one sound (when not in combination). Sometimes it makes an EE sound (slightly shorter than in English, toward a short I sound), sometimes UH, roughly as in the word up. I'm not really confident in my pronunciation yet to say for sure which is correct in Emrys, but I think it should be the long EE. However, an English speaker would probably stress the second syllable with the long vowel, em-REESE, but the stress should be EM-reese.

I can definitely see how Emrys would look and sound feminine to an English speaker... Ys are usually taken as feminine in English, though the opposite is usually true in Welsh, and whether pronouncing the ending as EESE or ISS, these are more commonly feminine in an Anglophone context. I just find it rather problematic when someone outside of a culture or language takes it upon themself to alter an element of that culture or language to their own purposes. This is particularly true where there is a power dynamic in place. The Welsh have been politically, socially and linguistically dominated by Britain/England for centuries, and have made an extraordinary effort to preserve Welsh as a living language. In minority or marginalized cultural groups, language is one of the most fundamental features of identity and means for preservation, and, having studied this in depth in a number of historical situations, I do believe that groups speaking minority languages should have a right of self-determination in terms of that language, and outsiders should be respectful of the integrity of that language. I don't say this because of my Welsh ancestry, I am only learning Welsh now, at 27, and I don't think I have any more right to get 'creative' with it than you or anyone else. I make the same argument in most cases where Native American or African American names are being considered or sought by parents outside those groups. Obviously there is a power dynamic in those cases, and, as in Wales, a long history of oppression and forced assimilation being brought about specifically through the mediums of language and names, as well as a high importance placed upon names as a means of resistance and a vital symbol of cultural pride.

I do think that a name pronounced EM-riss, EM-reese, or em-REESE would be lovely on a little girl. I just don't think Emrys is that name, and as a name that dates back over a thousand years and is central in the history and mythology of Wales, appropriation of it doesn't seem very respectful. So if you like the sound you're imagining, EMM-riss or emm-RISS, by all means, it's a beautiful choice, I just think you should find another spelling. I have seen a number of spellings such as Amreese, Emmerice, etc., which could fit your desired pronunciation, while leaving the integrity of a culturally-significant name intact.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-23-2004
In reply to: belle_petite
Thu, 09-14-2006 - 9:41pm

Amreese or Emmerice don't say 'emm-riss' to me. I would pronounce Amreese as 'am-reese' (lol, just how it looks) and Emmerice as 'emm-er-ice'. I don't even think we're going to consider this name as I've found another name that is somewhat similar but definitely a feminine name. If I was to consider this pronounciation I would maybe try and find an alternative spelling but may be something like: Emeris, Emmeris, Emaris, or something of the sort.

Terra.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-27-2005
In reply to: belle_petite
Fri, 09-15-2006 - 3:11pm

I'm glad you didn't take offence to my last post, I woke up this morning thinking perhaps it might have been taken as a personal attack, which is not what I meant at all. I've spent years studying anthropology, equity studies and colonial history, and I admit I have some strong opinions as a result. I just think that mainstream, North American culture has a particular way of thinking about language and names, as being 'just sounds' and 'just letters' and freely accessible to all, that sometimes comes into conflict with the beliefs of other cultures.

(Although, really this is a veneer of reason, under the surface I think we all retain a lot of intuitive responses to these groups of sounds and letters that reveal how much more they are to us. Profanities have power, religious words have power, we are hurt when someone mispronounces or misremembers our name, feel violated when a friend uses the special name we had set aside for our child, seek to bestow names with particular meaning or familial significance. The power isn't in the words and names themselves, although with religious words there might be some debate, but as members of society we all continually agree to maintain their power.)

I think, because we are used to feeling very free in the names we choose, we often fail to recognize that other cultures have very different ways of using and thinking about names, and when we don't keep this in mind we may cause offence or exercise a kind of cultural blindness that inadvertantly plays into histories of power imbalance and oppression. Language and naming are one of the few ways in which the legacies of colonialism are still openly perpetuated, and I do think that needs to be challenged. But this is an issue that pervades our culture and I didn't mean to criticize you individually.

I agree that your potential spellings are better than mine in conveying the sound you like for the name (the ending -ice, to me, is more like -is as in Chris than -eese as in Reese, the vowel sound is somewhere in between, but this probably reflects my French background and wouldn't work the way the average Anglophone pronounces a name like Clarice, for example). I was trying to think of spellings I've actually seen used, but in any event, I'm quite sure I have come across similar names before. Actually, I thought I had read about a similar name in a historical context, but I can't seem to find the source right now. There is the German male name Emmerich, which passed into French as Aymeric and eventually became Emery in English. Emmerice would be a plausible French feminine form, and might very easily have become something like Emeris in English vernacular. This is wholly speculation; I have no evidence that such a name was ever used, but if you like having a meaning for a name and do end up considering something like Emeris, you could reasonably think of it as a form of Emmerich, meaning something like 'industrious leader' or 'famous ruler'.

By the way, if you're interested, there is a wonderful documentary called 'My name is Kahentiiosta' through the National Film Board of Canada, which looks at how one Mohawk woman's name became a locus around which many issues of colonial power between First Nations peoples and the Canadian Government played out. It's very powerful and illustrates just how important, even sacred, names can be, a kind of power that is different from the way the broader culture thinks of names.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-31-2003
In reply to: belle_petite
Fri, 09-15-2006 - 4:29pm
I have known both boy and girl Emorys and Emerys. Never saw it spelled Emry.
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-31-2003
In reply to: belle_petite
Fri, 09-15-2006 - 7:59pm

I was sure confused, LOL!

I read the other posts and see that the name is Emrys, not a plural of Emry.

I am changing my poll response from unisex to girl.

Even if it is traditionally a boys name, the "Em" beginning (similar to Emily and Emma), and the "y" (similar to the y that people currently use to feminize male names such as Sydney, and in names such at Kaitlyn) make it look feminine to me, and in keeping with current female naming trends.

Sorry about my earlier mis-post.