Are we being played?
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| Sun, 08-12-2007 - 10:08pm |
Hey gals!
How do you know where to draw the line with Asperger's behavior and knowing that you are being played by a very smart 5 year old? I think part of the problem that we have with Nick is that he is smarter than your average 5 year old, confirmed by our dev ped. He thinks like an 8 year old, but at the same time, makes mistakes and gets caught. DH and I have been having a rough time with him with the "spoiled brat" behavior, to be honest, there is no other way to describe it. He throws a fit when he doesn't get his way, which then escalates into a full blown meltdown as he loses control. Mind you, there are some things that we let slide, an extra few minutes on the computer, etc. But there are things that I dont let slide, cookies before dinner, the potty language and attitude that he has grown so fond of. I wonder sometimes if he is a 13 year old boy living in a 5 year old body! It seems that lately all I get is attitude and insulted, unless he wants something, from him and he doesnt care if I take away his priviledges from him, but when I do, he cries and begs and tells me that he loves me and I am the best Mommy.
I have tried the 123 counting, he counts for me. Time outs dont work, he gets out of the chair and I physically have to put him in the chair which worked when he was younger, but not anymore. He doesnt care if I take away the computer and tv because he will then follow me around the house completely annoying me and I cant get anything done. He is an only child who has no interest in playdates. He is also adhd so not alot holds his interest for longer than about 30 minutes. I feel like we are sometimes being played like a cheap fiddle and he has learned to manipulate us quite well. Where does the Asperger's end and the 5 year old behavior begin?
Christine



((((Christine))))
I was getting ready to make a post of my own about a similar issue. It's been a rough day (though good for a Sunday) To answer your question, I have no idea, but I know where you're coming from. i'm in the exact same boat.
There are times when I can truely tell that whatever the problem is she really can't help it. but then there's other times that I have no idea if it's her being smart and playing me or if it's something out of her control.
One thing I've started doing when the fits start is trying to get her to use words about how she's feeling and what she really needs. She seems to be doing better and asking for what she needs before she gets to full blown melt down. Of course this has only be going on for a few weeks, so it may just be a rash of good luck. I'm optomistic though that it's working. . because some days if I don't have hope I don't have anything.
I will first admit I didn't make it through the entire post, darn ADHD acts up late at night, but I think I have the general gist.
First and foremost, aspie kids have a very hard time "Playing" people if they can at all. Their perspective taking is typically so poor that they are not good manipulators, particularly when they are young. Now they can appear to be manipulating and often it is our own behavior and reactions to their behavior which causes this, not their willful disobiedence or manipulation.
Often it comes down to communication challenges and inflexible thinking. Visual schedules and timers, if/then contracts, and consistency (loads and LOADS and loads of consistency which takes a long time) usually do the trick.
When Mike appears to be a "spoiled brat" I try to look at the specific behavior and the why of that behavior and pull it apart. I have learned some really neat things about my boy in the process. Here are some of his triggers for thsi stuff and let me know if they resonate with you.
1. New People. Mike HATES new people typically with a passion. If they try to put demands on him at all he has been known to be EXTREMELY RUDE. It works for him. The new person ignores him which is what he wanted in the first place.
2. Quick changes, Mike HAS to be warned of a change and if the change is to do something new he doesn't know or doesn't understand he gets pissy and being rude is a great way to get a time out and get out of the new thing.
3. He hates new things. He knows if his behavior is bad enough Mom won't take him to the new place, lol. Social stories, pictures and contracts work well for this.
4. If it is something he does know often he just needs the time to get his brain around the change. I can't tell him over and over, I have to tell him once, make sure he heard me AND comprehended it truly and then give him time to process. Often a visual timer or similar.
5. If it is a change that he knows and understands but HATES I may have to set up some sort of motivator for him and make a contract. He hates stores. They are loud and overstimulating and he almost always gets in trouble. So I have to make it motivating. Costco has free samples of stuff I don't usually let him have. that helps. He can check out the music section or the video section to see what he can find that is coming out new (his obsessions) but I also make it clear in advance whether or not it is a buying day. If I am really in need there is always a smoothie shop or some such thing after if we have a successsful trip.
Mike wants to be a good boy. He LIVES for positive praise and honestly he was such a difficult child that it was rare to come by in many many circumstances. He would often do just as much for negative attention as positive. I find that finding things he can be successful at and telling him how proud I am and just loving him up with praise is the best thing that works. Even making a big deal out of little things just to get him redirected is a help.
I also find that social stories work but I have to sneak them in conversationally so he doesn't know what is happening, lol. So often I will find myself saying something like, "Wow, I would really be happy if you tried to go to the store today. I know it is really hard and the lights are bright and it is noisy, but it is important to me that we go. I would be so proud of you if you just did your best and tried to come with me. In fact it might be fun and after we can get a smoothie."
There is one BIG monster aspie problem I see that is not addressed enough. That is that our kids are so smart it can really mask their challenges. It is really hard to understand that a child who tests 3 years above his age, really may not be able to comprehend regular life like children who are much younger and less verbal.
There is an article. "Blinded by their strengths" that I think speaks directly to this. Yes, Nick may test as a child with an 8yo's understanding but that is an 8yos understanding of academic material, not social and every day material. In that he is probably closer to 3yo. His understanding of your expectations may be much less than you think actually.
Here is a good example I was reminded of recently. Mike had to take a bath one night and I told him to "get in the tub" which his promptly did in his clothes. Never turned the water on, etc. (till i found him and realized my mistake). Not only did he take me literally like our kids do, he did not use the non-verbal type cues that a typical child much younger can. You would expect a child of his age at the time (he was likely 5-6) to realize that this was the regular bath time of the evening and that what I really wanted from the situation and my nonverbal cues was for him to get clean. He did not get any of that where as a younger child would naturally understand that.
It would seem to many others who don't understand him that he was being a brat. When he fought me initially about getting in the tub and I yelled at him (yes I did, I admit) I was thinking he was being cheeky when really he was just upset at being told to do something that made no sense to him. When he got in with clothes I thought he was being cheeky again and he went to time out until I realized what had transpired.
It is an easy goof to make. We often try to understand our kids with our own thinking processes, but the real challenge is to think with theirs.
Just wanted to say "What a GREAT post, Renee". Your Mike and my Andrew sound so similar (rudeness, tendency toward agression, etc). One of the hardest things for me is remembering that difference between his academic ability and his ability to function with the day to day stuff. Thanks for the reminder.
Melissa
Oh wow!! That is both my boys to a tee. They are soooo good at masking certain challenges. I firmly believe that is why Liam's dx came 3 years after I already knew and as to why Cian's dx is still pending.
Christine-As to Nick possibly manipulating,...hmm that's a tough one, when we are in the thick of a certain behavior dh and I often struggle with this. However after the fact when I review the situation I can always find the trigger or catalyst for the behavior, EG: yesterday we were at Kohls (Liam likes this store as it's open and airy and even when it's packed it really isn't, kwim. Not to mention he can wander the toy area happily;)
When we were checking out the cashier was a teenager with an updo that was on reflection straggily and messy; however I'm sure it was a statement thing, suited her! Liam looks at her (after a morning of button pushig btw) and says "bad hair day huh!"
I of course in my reactionary in public situation hissed "LIAM!" he goes "what? I was just saying ." Then I stepped over the mark and mouthed "shut up." A biiiig no-no to Liam,do not shhh him or shut up him. I am not all that thrilled with my reaction and another day perhaps I'd have been more understanding. I thought he was being rude and obnoxious....now in hindsight I realize he was saying it as he saw it, and was echoing from a show to connect wiith this cashier.
Still took me hours to get it. So like Renee, even when Liam tried to be rude, obnoxious or manipulate when I check back...nope he's trying to communicate in the best way he can with the limited resources he has; in fact it's really MY job to translate his behavior, not his to translate the world....Gosh that must be exhausting for him!
Right off my soap box!
Dee
Boy this posting is timely. We've been having similar issues with Aidan (4.5). Just yesterday I was upstairs for maybe 30 min. and DH was watching him and the little one (16 mo.). I heard him yelling at them and when I got downstairs DH had a scowl on his face. When I asked him what his problem was, he said he was sick of the kids not obeying him. I don't know what the little one did, but he's a little young to expect too much obedience. Aidan had been repeatedly grabbing stuff off the kitchen counter and either running around with it himself or giving it to his brother - stuff like a pop bottle, his toothbrush, apples, etc. We keep telling him to keep his hands off the counter because there could be something dangerous (sharp knife, hot appliance, etc). that he could grab accidentally. It NEVER seems to sink in. I keep wondering if he's just being difficult and ignoring us or if it's somehow related to his PDD. If I even suggest the latter, DH really gets huffy and says I'm making excuses. Ugh! I just wish I knew for sure which it was. Timeouts don't work. He just gets out of the chair. If we sit with him he'll do his time but not quietly and it doesn't seem to have much impact on his behavior.
Trish
Thank you, you lovely ladies, for bringing me back down to earth and reminding me that my kids behaviors are not just because their being brats.
Funny story tho to tell about being literal and rude.....
On the 4th of July we went to my sil's house for a family party. It was dark and we were all outside watching the firework show they were doing down the street (front row, it was great! lol).
Music was on from a car down the street (the street was completly lined with people because of the location to see the professional firework display).
Anyway my sil did this funny dance and I yelled (Take it off, take it off lol. Just to let you know I was driving and had zero alcohol lol, but we were cracking up big time.)
She made the comment that no way, "I'd take it off and everyone would be begging me to put it back on." Well Chris was sitting there and looked straight at my sil, and in a very straight face said "Yes your right, everyone would be asking you to put your clothes back on....
She just kind of stopped, and I went omg lol. I leaned over to her and said please understand, literly if you or anyone else took their clothes off, then yes you understand everyone would say that, it's not that you look bad, it's that literaly in real life, it's wrong to take your clothes off in front of everyone LOLOLOLOLOL. Well she got it, but that's one of the times that I forget to realize that Chris just doesn't understand stuff like that.
This morning my friend threw a hat on her head and told chris, I'm hiding my hair with a hat today (pre-shower hair) and she said he looked at her and said no your not... I can still see your hair (she just threw a hat on and her hair was down on the sides). I had to explain to her why chris didn't get what she said... SIGH.
Anyway, I know I have to be careful and think before I think he's rude. He really doesn't get this stuff, and I tend to forget that myself.
Lainie
Christine......
OMG.....the attitude and spoiled brat behavior. It's our biggest hurdle around here. It was pretty bad between the ages of 4-6. Sam had no impulse control at all and I think because of that he tried to control everything else around him. Add sticky thinking, difficulty transitioning and rigidity to that and....oy!
Consequences didn't work much then either. Sam didn't get his way, got punished because of his reaction to not getting his way and still in the end didn't get his way....somehow he always felt like he was on the short end of the deal. He still loves toying with the idea of being the boss. We have to remind him of the responsibility that comes with being an adult. I tell him that it means that he has to do dishes, go to work, laundry....etc.....he doesn't like that part of it LOL!
Schedules help to let him know when he gets tv time....etc. so he's not obsessing about it all day. They do help him to know what's going on for the day and our expectations of him. But he doesn't like the schedule either because it's a visual reminder that he's not in control of tv time. We have to remind him that he's not the adult constantly. He hates it....he wants to be the boss. He has a hard time accepting no. That seems to be common in ASD kids. There's actually a picture social story about that one in the book we used for Sam's social skills class.
We really have to work hard to keep him positive. Each dissappointment is a huge blow to him. Positive reinforcement works tons better than punitive measures after the fact. Keeping him occupied and engaged with us in fun activities constantly helps alot. Screen time and solitary play is a reward for him. He gets to tune out and relax from all his socializing. Consequences work better now. He started meds for attention/impulse control last summer and that has helped alot. We started cognitive behavior therapy at the same time and having that extra set of ears and eyes to pick up on hidden reinforcers and things we may not see helps too. Last summer we were having alot of trouble with meltdowns. Sam has been much happier this summer; I'm hoping all this work we're doing will hod up to the teenage years!
Chrystee
Renee, that is an awesome post, thanks for taking the time to give me a better perspective. Alot of what you say make perfect sense. As I was reading down through your post, I caught myself saying Yep, that is Nick.
We have started using timers for when he is on the computer. We actually let him set it himself so it gives him a bit more control, but then we secretly take time off because he will set it for the full hour on the timer. He doesnt know the difference. Getting him off the computer is a whole nother story though. It is a battle because he cant stop and just quit so we unplug the internet connection from the firewall which kills the internet, all of a sudden it stops and he thinks the internet just died and he gets up no problems. He accepts that far easier than us fighting to get him off.
A huge problem with us and I think this is where I still believe there is an issue is when we go somewhere like Target or Walmart, is the toy section. Nick usually has a few $$ to spend, but he will go over the limit. First it takes him forever to pick something out, not surprising, the Hot Wheels selection is mind-boggling to him. Then he will throw a meltdown in the store if he cant just have that extra hot wheel car. I have actually dragged him out of the store before, but sometimes I have given in and gotten it for him since I have a cart of things that I really need to buy. After that he is all sweet and sugar. I do believe despite the AS, he can manipulate us, just like any normal child can. I try not to take him with me, but there are times when I dont have a choice. When we are here at home, he can be so rude and snippy, but when he wants something, he can really pour it on. If I ask him to help me clean up his room, he will not do it, tell me I am a mean mommy, that he hates me, etc., but if there is a reward for it, he will do it in a heartbeat.
Showers are another thing, cant get him in there for nothing, but he actually developed a rash from not showering enough, I know this sounds mean and gross, but I proved a point. I kept his important parts clean, but I called his bluff when he told me he wasnt ever going to take a shower again! I got sick and tired of fighting him and the screamfest that ensued because he was being snotty with me. I was stressed over it and wasted too much water waiting for him, because once he got in there, he loved being in there. It was just a battle of the wills. Finally he got a little rash from not being so clean and I gently explained that was from not showering enough and he got the point and now he showers when I ask him to, reminding him of the rash if I need to.
We have also upped his clonidine dose to 1/2 tab in the evenings as his body has gotten used to the 1/4 tab dose now. His attitude is starting to he isnt as argumentative and bedtime is now about 9:15 instead of 10:30. This is better since school starts in a couple of weeks and with no nap in kindy, he will need the extra sleep! I also think that since he wasnt sleeping enough was making him quite cranky from going to bed too late.
Thanks for all the good advice!!
Christine
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Christine