Behavior questions......

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-16-2006
Behavior questions......
11
Fri, 06-23-2006 - 9:50am
Having read a few posts, and not wanting anyone to take anything personally - i do have a question - where is the line between poor behavior and PDD or AS? I personally am starting to see when DD is doing something she KNOWs she is not supposed to do, and when she is doing something that I think is related to her delays. Ususally its her response to me telling her not to do it. I find that if she is doing something she knows better - she will stop immediately and try to hide that she was doing it. When it is delay related, she may or may not stop, but she is then, well kinda surprised or sort of looks like hmmm what was wrong with that???? Granted, my DD is pretty young still, but those of you with older kids, how do you handle that? I don't want to get to a point where anytime DD misbehaves etc... it is assumed it is her PDD because that can become a crutch or excuse...does that make sense?????

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 06-23-2006 - 11:07am

Yes it makes total sense.

Our kids may be ASD but first and foremost they are kids and they are going to behave like kids and they need to learn appropriate behavior like kids. Also, if we want them to be productive independent adults (which we all do) they are going to have to learn appropriate behavior, differences or not. Where the delays part comes in is 3 ways. 1) they are delayed so it will take them longer to learn the appropriate behavior than an NT child, and 2) how you teach appropriate behavior, and 3) modifications that need to be made for certain things that are out of thier control (like sensory sensitivities that may lead to meltdown) or understanding (having visuals to teach)

For instance, my son HATES new places and new people, it makes him very anxious. He has alot of sensory sensitivities and when going to say a new doctors office the anxiety with the sensory sensitivies are enough often to send him into full meltdown. Full meltdown for Mike may include very dangerous behavior to himself or to others. It may require that I restrain him for the sake of safety. He is 10 and quite big. Despite the fact that it is fight or flight, his autism, his sensory sensitivities, he has GOT to learn how to control that behavior to have a halfway normal life. We have a new appointment today so this is what I am doing...

First is regular discipline like a typical child. He hits he loses priveledges, period. Last time he tantrumed that badly he lost priveledges for 3 days. That is about as long as is teachable to him and next time I will likely go with 1 or 2. After the 2nd day he just wasn't getting what the punishment was for. We have been teaching the same behaviors forever, he is getting better but my 6yo already is able to abide by the same 3 rules that Mike is still struggling with. But I will not give up.

Next, we plan in advance and teach him appropriate behavior in a autism specific way. We did a social story of what to do. We went over exactly what will happen at the doctor. We made a plan of what to do if he gets anxious. We went over specifically what IS appropriate behavior (same 3 rules as FOREVER) And we set up a contract for what he will earn for appropriate behavior.

Last, modifications. I am writing a letter to give the psychiatrist when we walk in. The letter will briefly explain Mikes anxieties and what will set him off. The letter will politely request that we keep the first meeting low key and will also request a time for a phone call where I can discuss with her our concerns without doing it in the first appointment which will almost certainly set Mike off.

Does that make sense?

Renee

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-31-2003
Fri, 06-23-2006 - 11:20am

It's funny, I recently went to an autism support group, and the topic for discussion that day was discipline -- and that was the EXACT question I asked: how do we know what our kids are doing because of their autism vs. when they're just being kids? One of the things the group leader said was that the key for us is learning where the behaviors are coming from -- kind of like what Renee said, are the behaviors coming from major sensory issues, or anxiety, or whatever? That way we can hopefully in the future learn to prevent some of those behaviors -- by modifications to the environment, changes in our own expectations, social stories, whatever. BUT, even if we understand where the behavior is coming from, does not mean that the behavior is okay! That was the most important point in the discussion for me. So, for example, Sylvia has sensory issues that can cause her lots of anxiety. Sometimes if she gets a drop of water on her shirt while she's eating dinner, she really freaks out and throws her plate and cup on the floor. OK: so I know that her behavior is coming from her sensory issues, that she's not deliberately trying to be "bad." However, that doesn't mean that I think it's okay that she threw her plate and cup on the floor. I can be understanding, but I still have to help her learn how to manage herself better, and how to control her impulses. So, I make her get down and clean up everything she spilled. But for the future, I'll try to help her learn how to use words rather than destructive actions to express her anxiety; I'll give her non-messy food at dinner as much as possible; I'll give her a straw cup rather than an open cup if she's in a particularly anxious mood, etc.

But also, like Renee said, these lessons take SO long for our kids to learn! Sylvia still struggles with the sensory issues at dinnertime. Sometimes she manages to control herself, and sometimes she doesn't -- I think it will probably take years before she's really able to handle it. But we just keep plugging away...

I think that I try to handle her misbehaviors in the same way, whether I think it's just "normal" kid behaviors or ASD behaviors. The difference is that, if I suspect it's related to ASD, I try to figure out how to help her prevent the misbehaviors from occuring next time. Does that make sense?

HTH!!!

JEnnifer

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-16-2006
Fri, 06-23-2006 - 12:04pm

Yep...perfect sense...I ask because DD is is pretty happy go lucky kid, but she is 3, so she does try things. For example - she picked up somewhere that falling down on the ground would somehow allow her to get her way - well not at my house so I usually tell her if she is comfortable laying on the ground - no problem, but mommy is leaving/continuing on and I say okay - bye bye, which promptly gets her up, brushing her clothes off and running to hold my hand etc..... I know she is being 3.

But we travel a lot (europe twice a year plus usually a family vacation) and while 9 times out of 10 she does fine, every once in a while she gets frustrated because she wants something and doesn't have the communication skills to tell me, and will get pretty upset while I amtrying to figure it out - and I know that is PDD related - the lack of communication frustration so I speak very clamly etc, all the while scrambling mentally to try to understand what she needs....

I don't much give a hoot what other people think, but if it is PDD related AND a sticky situation...late at night on a plane, i will tell the folks around me that i will get her clamed, but she has mild autism so it may take a few minutes longer, sorry for the disturbance and thatusually takes care of the comments, stares and occasionally will get some assistance (i once was on a flight with about 10 special needs teachers who were on vacation together - oh joy!)

You are exactly right that I NEVER want her PDD to be a crutch, and she has to learn appropriate ebhaviors. we are really blessed that she doesn't have many issues beyond he language problems but I also try to keep a very close eye so that if things develops, we can work on them right away....

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 06-23-2006 - 1:20pm

Good ideas.

I was thinking more about this and I had one more thought. Yes some behavior is just because they are 3 or 2 or 10 or kids but no matter if it is a typical kid behavior they are still always autistic. So I find I often still have to deal with typical kid behavior in my autism mom way. KWIM? Regular discipline may or may not work with some ASD kids so that is always in the back of the mind. Regular discipline with a PDD twist, lol.

I also have quite a thick skin and don't mind explaining that my kids have autism if the need arises. Fortunately, Cait is pretty well beyond that stage. She can usually manage her behavior fairly well in public places. At least enough not to draw attention to herself.

Here is the 12yo version of the flopping on the floor thing with an ASD twist. Yesterday we were going to the library. Cait decided that her sandals didn't feel quite right and it was really bugging her. She wanted to get different shoes when we were already in the car and on our way. Shoes are an issue for her but these shoes she has been wearing for weeks and she was just having an ASD moment where she was particularly sensitive. I also know in these moments NO shoes will feel right and if we don't go now we will miss the whole trip. I said, no we don't have time. And went. We got to the library and seh wasn't going to get out of the car because of the shoes. Just quiet disobedience. I said, fine but if you want books you need to come into the library. It is your choice. I took the other kids and went in. Sure enough in about 5 minutes she came in as well. (I was watching the car from inside the library the whole time just in case, lol)

When seh was 3 that would have been a full blown meltdown tantrum that would have turned heads. Now it was just a quiet need to transition my brain around I don't get different shoes.

Renee

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iVillage Member
Registered: 01-16-2006
Fri, 06-23-2006 - 2:06pm
LOL...I read your Cait posts and print the ones I can already forsee with Hannah.....
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-03-2004
Fri, 06-23-2006 - 2:44pm

Interesting to read about how others are disciplining, I agree with everything others wrote. I also do not allow behavior to go without consequences. But first off, the consequences are never delivered in a condemning way but instead calmly, promptly, without discussion. Also, the consequences need to be meaningful and effective. This takes constant tweaking. We also go over and over the rules and steps and ideas of ways to cope when disappointed, etc. Really, nothing will work if there is not teaching involved.

Right now our difficulties are coming from Malcolm being with more challenging children who sometimes seem to tease or get angry and have lots of language and more social skills than he does. He does sometimes overreact, and bad behavior (such as hitting or screaming) always gets consequences. However, the side that is SO important here is to go over with him what happened, to understand where the communication breakdown occured and where he might still be confused, try to prepare him for situations that may arise and with possible coping choices, to also prepare him to deal with if and when he makes a mistake and overreacts. Look for the triggers, see if there are preparations that might avoid those triggers. And help him with what to do if other children are causing him trouble.

Also we have found that if the consequences are too punitive, the upset that occurs continues to escalate him and he overreacts to the consequences --- and this can be a real tarbaby leading to more and more bad behavior. So we have to be very careful and clear with the structure of the discipline when dealing with areas that have to do with his autism.

Misbehaving like a regular child, not stemming from confusion etc. --- is anything that can be corrected with a word, a look, a quick consequence. Easy-peasy. My ds doesn't overreact when he KNOWS he shouldn't have done something and tried anyways. So I have no trouble distinguishing whether it's PDD or naughtiness... It's all in his face and body.

Sara
ilovemalcolm

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-20-2001
Fri, 06-23-2006 - 9:41pm

Renee,


Here is a good question for you.

 


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Registered: 06-25-2003
Fri, 06-23-2006 - 10:06pm

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 06-23-2006 - 11:59pm

YEp, that is a common problem and it is very much an autism spectrum problem. See many like attention too but the problem is to them positive and negative attention is all the same. They often don't feel bad for making mommy angry because they don't understand that mommy is angry. A NT child when you scold them feels remorse but with an ASD child it is attention.

So yes, the natural remedy seems to be to ignore the behavior and not give them the attention. THis is called an extinction program. There are a few problems with extinction programs, the biggest of which is that it is very hard to run perfectly and if you don't the behavior increases. Perfect means that no one ever responds to the childs behavior no matter what.

Small ABA lesson. Least I will try to keep it small, lol.

There are all different types of reinforcement schedules or times in which you reinforce behavior. The more effective form of reinforcement is "variable reinforcment". In other words you don't reinforce a behavior every time it occurs or even regularly when it occurs but it always varies. If you reinforce a desired behavior every time it occurs or on regular intervals and suddenly stop the reinforcment then the behaivor soon stops as well. Would you go to work if you never got paid? But if you never know when the reinforcer is coming, you are more likely to continue the behavior in the hopes of getting the reinforcer. If you get a nice gift once in a while from a teacher where you volunteer but you don't expect them aren't you more likely to continue to want to volunteer?

Extinction programs are easy fodder for variable reinforcement becuase not everyone will be able to perfectly ignore the behavior all the time. AND, even if you get everyone on the same page and get them all REALLY good at ignoring (this includes the 2 yo) autistics are darn good at continuing to push the envelop until you have to respond. They don't have an internal meter of when something is getting dangerous or when they are going to far. For instance, if you ignore the feet on the table and Bobby decides instead to start to tip his chair back are you sure he would stop before he flipped himself over or before he hurt lizzie doing something?

The best method I have found is to neutrally respond to the behavior right away with some sort of consequence. I do like super nanny style. I don't interact with the kids in time out. At least I didn't at that age, I can now and make them behave appropriately more ofte. But I just send them to time out. Stand so they can't escape with my back toward them. Provide neutral and minimal verbal interaction and set a timer. When the timer goes off they can get out of time out and go back to what they are doing. I don't talk to them after time out either to go over the behavior if they are attention seeking because then the get the attention for a negative. Rather I wait and start to catch them as soon as I can doing something good and interact with them then.

I do process problems with the older kids now after a time out but not ones like that where they are looking for attention and just being naughty. I will process with them cogniftively if it is something like a meltdown or something they need to learn from.

HTH

Renee

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iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 06-24-2006 - 12:00am

LOL, that works too. I like to deflect with humor if I can. Sometimes it works, sometimes is percipitates more of the same behavior, lol.

Renee

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