gelatin and phenols
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| Sun, 07-30-2006 - 10:47am |
I was reading about wine and it seems that gelatin is an agent used to
reduce phenols in wine and juices.
I also read it as one of the
substances to be used in case of accidental phenol ingestion:
"Victims who are conscious and able to swallow should be given 4 to
8 ounces of milk, egg whites, or gelatin solution; if the patient is
symptomatic, delay decontamination until other emergency measures
have been instituted"
culled from:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/mhmi/mmg115.html
"Question: How do I use gelatin?
Answer: Gelatin is used in juices for reaction with polymeric
phenols at dosage rates of 2 – 8 ounces per 1000 gallons. A 5%
slurry is better for adding gelatin to the juice. The gelatin should
be hydrated properly in water with slow mixing."
culled from:
http://www.filtermaterials.com/Gusmer/techsupport/FaqList.asp?
deptId=3
Everyone in my family is reactive to phenols. I wonder if these
same chemical principles gelatin is used for the above items would
also work in the body. Egg whites were also mentioned frequently in
reducing phenols (albumen). Phenols must rapidly denature these
proteins?
I wonder if joint problems are due to being phenolic sensitive
(impaired) and the phenols are bonding to the collagen sites of the
body, such as joints,synovial fluid,etc. Very likely binding to albumin too. My daughters both walked
on their toes and my youngest one still has a rigidity to her
limbs. Perhaps increasing gelatin consumption would be an
interesting experiment. The problem is that phenols are usually added to jello type gelatins. There is a lot of gelatin in homemade broth, tho.

I've never noticed a phenol intolerance, at least an obvious one, in my kids. I have been interested in the benifits of homemade broth recently though. I made some last week. Now I just need to actually get it out of the freezer and drink it regularly. I've had tendonitis in my right elbo all summer. I thought it might help (if I actually drink it, lol).
Do you guys use Houston's No-Phenol?
Samantha
I only use No Fenol on my youngest daughter. I can't tolerate it. I suspect that No Fenol works to make sulfur more available somehow since the No Fenol side effects seem parallel to my sulfur intolerance. My oldest daughter is also high in sulfur and doesn't tolerate No Fenol well. My youngest daughter does better on sulfur so she does pretty well on No Fenol.
I think high phenols have different effects on different people. There may not be obvious signs such as dark circles, like my youngest daughter gets. However, there are signs that are downline caused by a phenolic overload which we do not attribute to phenols due to simply not knowing. Ultimately, it hurts the liver. Specifically for me, I notice it messes with my hormones and blood clotting as obvious physical signs. I also suspect it is the reason I bruise easily, tend to be anemic and have weak joints (since age 21!). The thing is if the PST enzyme is impaired in a person, the phenols build up. With an impaired PST enzyme, the phenols are not able to complete the process of working with sulfur to go on to the phenols' powerful anti-oxidant properties. This is probably the reason why ASD kids are under oxidative stress. With the PST enzyme working poorly and not partnering with the sulfur the way it's supposed to, this phenol builds up and becomes toxic in addition to depriving them of anti-oxidants. So, to recap, not only are the phenols unable to turn into their anti-oxidant properties to fight normal oxidative damage, they are building up and turning into a toxin on top of that. In high enough amounts, phenols can cause too much fluidity of the blood...lessened ability to coagulate in a way that's much different, I suspect than other blood thinners such as fish oil. Things such as this that may not show up as an obvious sign.
So, the ways that may not be overt physical symptoms such as dark circles under the eyes or whatever could appear in behavioral ways. If phenols build up, this could have a profound affect on tyrosine. Tyrosine is the only phenolic amino acid. Tyrosine is converted to thyroid hormones, melanin, and DOPA. Also, it could affect the way MAO enzymes must work because MAOs largely breakdown neurotransmitters. Dopamine is derived from tyrosine and remember tyrosine is a phenolic amino acid. It could force them to work faster or maybe creates a backlog because there is excess phenols in the body. MAOs work to break down neurotransmitters such as serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, etc. It also breaksdown a substance called tyramine, which is derived from tyrosine. Normal functioning MAOS work to inactivate tyramine. Tyramine causes a release of norepinephrine (which is adrenaline which would mean hyperactivity in a social setting).
There are different types of MAO's but basically if their functioning is affected, it can result in hyperactivity, impulsivness, defiance of authority and punishment, sensation seeking, etc. Low levels of MAO-A are found to be common in suicides. That has been of keen interest to me considering the depression and abnormal ratio of suicide attempts (and "success") rate in my family. Although at this point I don't know if it's necessarily low levels of MAO-A so much as a low ability to deal with phenols. Maybe a combo of both. For interest, you could research MAO A and MAO B. Basically, I think phenols affect the functionings of these enzymes because of the poor PST enzyme. You could look up those symptoms and possibly see the chain of reaction from the phenols to the tyrosine all the way down to the MAO enzymes that regulate the breakdown of neurotransmitters.
But there are the physical symptoms too. Because tyrosine also helps regulates iron. Phenols inhibit iron. They did studies that showed children with ADHD who were supplemented with iron had much improvement in their behavior. (Though I don't choose to supplement my kids with iron). Also phenols are known to mimic estrogen. Women have a bit more protection from the adverse effects of excess estrogen because we have more progesterone to offset it. Boys don't.
Hopefully this gives you a direction in your research and the understanding of how far and wide across the system these unbound and backlogged phenols trigger a chain of events from our hormones to our homocysteine and to our neurotransmitters. I also suspect to our ability to regulate blood sugar as well.
How much phenol is in 100% juice?
I buy plain gelatin and use it to make jello with juice. It is the same principal as jello but what you do is heat 1 cup of juice until boiling, add a packet of gelatin, stir until disolved and then add a cup of cold juice, stir and refridgerate until solid.
If there is lots of phenols in juice, what is there that isn't. I bet you could sneak gellatin in lots of stuff. It has no taste at all, it just adds consistency. So one could theroretically add a small amount to smoothies, ice cream drinks, chocolate milk, cocoa etc without the children noticing. At least I think not. It may take some experimenting to see how much to add and how to do it.
You also can make homemade preserves or jellys that have lots of gellatin in it.
Renee (who thinks some homemade jello sounds kind of good for desert tonight!)
LR,
thanks as ever for the fascinating information.
This is of particular interest to me. I have a lot of connective tissue problems. I am hypermobile, possible Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. (I have been trying to get a straight answer on that question since April, but that's another story.)
Anyhoo. Gelatin and particularly broth
visit my blog at www.onesickmother.com
Yeah, that's the trick. Finding something that doesn't have phenols. LOL Some are worse than others. I think turmeric is extremely high in it. I wouldn't take that. Quercetin is too, unfortunately. Prune juice is very high in it. Grape juice doesn't seem to give my daughter dark circles the way prune juice does so although I think it's high, it doesn't seem to be nearly as bad as prune juice. My oldest daughter would get extremely hyper on applesauce, but not applejuice. I'm not sure why. Maybe there's more phenols in peels than the fruit? Maybe there's more peels in sauce than juice?
There are other low phenol fruits like melons, I think. Sorta hard to buy a big jug o' melon juice tho. LOL I've read pear juice is low phenol, but pear jello is going to be hard sell to the kids, not to mention it costs more than regular juice. I think I just might start out with grape jello to get them used to the texture in a flavor their used to. THen I might slowly start mixing in pear juice or something.
Do you think they would eat a smoothie made mainly of melons and you could add a little gelatin to that?
How are mangos? Mango juice is pretty common and very yummy. How about berries?
Bummer if phenols are a problem and in most fruits. My kids live on all kinds of fruit.
Renee
I've heard a lot about hyaluronic acid in the past. There is a group of old people in Japan who are famous for having the longest lifespan. There was a book and a dateline type tv show about it some odd years ago. They were eating a lot of root type vegetables that contain a lot of hyaluronic acid that contributed to their vigorous older years.
Then, the big thing was injecting hyaluronic acid into peoples joints that was made from cockscombs. My father-in-law had done this before he had his knees replaced. Didn't seem to do much for him, he said.
I take 400mg magnesium citrate a day (not the liquid kind you can find in the ex-lax section). I found I like the quality of the solgars brand the best since it has less filler, but others work too. It absolutely helps my hip. Later I learned that magnesium is a precursor to hyaluronic acid. I really wondered if the root vegetables the Japanese people were eating contained a lot of magnesium, really.
The only two vitamins I personally take that I find essential for me are sublingual b12 and the mag citrate. There's others I'm considering taking that I want to get around explaining sometime.
I don't know if the gelatin theory will at all to help neutralize phenols, but it's one of those things that seem like it won't hurt anyway. How the hyaluronic acid might fit into the equation is that it seems uncontrolled phenols might be denaturing the collagen type proteins, or perhaps, most likely, binding and "eating up" the hyaluronic acid itself. Hmmm. Maybe that is the likely scenario. It probably is damaging the hyaluronic acid which then eventually takes away its support of collagen.
I'll check out that website. Sorry about the pain you're going thru. I have realized over the years that the very things I'm pursuing to understand about my children's health really apply to me as well.
I think the smoothie idea sounds great! Thanks for the tip. I looked at the flavored gelatins today and they had red dye#40, blue and yellow dyes in them. I know red dye#40 is made from coal tar and phenol is the most potent toxicant derived from coal tar products. hmmm. My oldest daughter is very sensitive to dryer sheets being used on her laundry...those are also made from petro products. I've had to use vinegar to soften up the clothes. Those phenol based dyes are in everything, it seems. I overlook some bad stuff in ingredients for the sake of not living too paranoid, but I won't buy the products with those dyes in them. I did buy some of the frozen concentrate juices to use with plain gelatin, although those aren't perfect either, but most of them didn't have dye added at least.
I love the smoothie idea the more I think about it. You can set up a fairly stable smoothie with that I'd think. I don't know if mangoes are highly phenolic.
Let me know what you come up with. My kids nearly live on smoothies and protien shakes. Well maybe not live on them but usually once a day. I would totally add some to them if you find it helps. Heck I have bad knee problems and take glucosamine when it flares up. I am sure the gelatin won't hurt me either and I have a big box in the cabinet.
Renee