IDEA 2004 question - this is a hard one

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-22-2004
IDEA 2004 question - this is a hard one
10
Thu, 04-12-2007 - 9:59pm

Does a school meet IDEA 2004 requirement to provide evidence/researched based services to a child (such as ABA therapy) by simply VERBALLY stating they USE THIS TECHNIQUE or are they required to provide the actual therapy as the surgeon general has sanctioned. This being said, if they are required to provide the actual therapy then getting definition on qualified personnel to provide this therapy would consist of a certified ABA consultant with a PhD correct? Or can just the school psych. do this even though they are not certified nor have they been trained?

So, if that is the case, then in order to service these kids and meet this requirement, can schools just approve the ABA but not allow for the ABA consultant or any training to be done and meet IDEA 2004?

Also, what is conidered "timely services" and what is does the term "to the extent practicable" mean?

These are questioned I posed to the US Senate HELP committee today. I also sent another email to our state superintendent to see how our state interprets this!

So, what is your opinion?

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-25-2003
Thu, 04-12-2007 - 10:10pm

yep it is a hard one.


You know I had only just got my head around IDEA '97

-Paula

visit my blog at www.onesickmother.com
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 04-13-2007 - 12:29am

As far as scientifically validated practices, I don't think it is either of what you said. If they state they use a program and are asked if it is scientifically validated the district should be able to provide the scientific data (such as research articles). However, it does not have to be surgeon general sanctioned. The surgeon general likely has nothing to do with most educational practices as they are educationally based not medically.

Scientifically validated means that there has been peer reviewed studies in journals to show effectiveness. There are tons of educational journals out there that study a variety of things. There are government links as well which can tell about lots of the evidence and articles written about practices. I can post a couple links for you. YOu can get a million abstracts on research on the Eric clearing house (gotta look up the link). There are many others as well.

As far as ABA, they don't have to do ABA but any appropriate service. Many districts also do TEACCH or similar type models or a combined approach. Often a combined approach is considered best practice.

If they are doing ABA then yes, i believe the person should be trained. However, I don't think there are exact criteria for what that means. I doubt they would have to be certified ABA as there are VERY few ABA certification places and there are loads of people who are qualified to do ABA and are quite good who are not certified but are trained (since the cert is new.) I can give you my resume and training and let you know that I am highly qualified to do ABA and pretty good at it but am not certified. I would rather have someone with a wide variety of knowledge in various disciplines than one only certified in ABA IMO.

Timely services - That is open to interpretation actually is my understanding. The school has to put in a good faith effort to start the services immediately or close to that as possible to when it was agreed upon. However, that depends on having the resources available. For instance, if they agree to an ABA certified consultant and don't have one ON staff, then they have to contract privately. How timely teh services are depends on if there is an ABA cert consultant in teh area and what their availability is. However, if the district doesn't move on it in a timely fashion and put forth an effort then you would file non-compliance and ask for compensatory services.

That is the best I can do I believe. (my education laws and ethics class is coming in handy, lol)

Renee




Edited 4/13/2007 12:32 am ET by rbear4
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iVillage Member
Registered: 12-22-2003
Fri, 04-13-2007 - 8:56am

Yet ANOTHER reason why we're so grateful to have Renee around. ;-)

Amy

Meez 3D avatar avatars games

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-22-2004
Fri, 04-13-2007 - 6:25pm

Well, (I'm not debating this. I really want help with it. So don't take anything I say as me questioning your knowledge. I'm looking for multiple opinions to help me with a legal decision. And thanks for the reply you gave already.)

The question I asked is not specifically about ABA. It is about the usage of schools trying to set and IEP by only VERBALLY stating that they provide ABA, TEEACH, Floortime, Social Stories, etc. If they can meet IDEA by only VERBALLY stating they do these techniques, but cannot prove that they do, since (at least in our school) there is no one trained in autism or treatments of, how is that complying with the law? That's my question.

As far as what you mentioned about using multiple therapy approaches. I have yet to see a child successful with this (at least in our state, but also I've only been exposed for 5 yrs since dd was dx at age 2). The reason I say this is that there needs to be a fundamentally based plan (strategy - so pick TEEACH or ABA or whatever), WITH measurable goals, that are recorded and monitored and THEN they could add components of other programs should/when the main choice does not help a child meet a goal either because of the method or the missing link in the method. However, I'm tired of my schools in OK saying that they use this approach, but the teacher, aid, therapist, counselor, support staff, even the psychologist KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THESE METHODOLOGIES OR HAVE BEEN TRAINED IN THEM. That's my point I'm trying to make. It does not seem that a school can only be verbal.

In your response to me you wrote "If they state they use a program and are asked if it is scientifically validated the district should be able to provide the scientific data (such as research articles)." Do you think presentation of a journal entry or article is means enough to meet this law? I don't. I think the school/staff should actually be required to be trained and understand and actually REALLY provide the services. I think the IEP team should be required to assist parents that are not as formally trained as the educators in writing a REAL plan.

Of course, maybe IEP forms differ from state to state? Here they list assesment, goals,and services to be provided with expiration dates for the services. At least that is how mine is.

As far as your comment about the certification of ABA, I guess I'm lucky because everyone in MO and OK that I was able to privately hire was certified and I had no problem locating them or hiring them. But there are not many true. So, this poses the question as to how well trained must you be to provide ABA? Should it just be classroom or intership as well? Should it be for any length of time. I'm just seeking clarification on qualified personnell. Obviously, the school psych (in OK they are not really psychologists, they simply have over 60 hrs of psychology to be considered school psychologists here)that is not trained in ABA is not qualified. I just use the example because it seems like psychology overall seems to claim capability to effectively provide service of ABA. It is weird to me because medical doctors are allowed to basically do whatever any time, but most understand that primary care is different from specialty. I mean do you really want your PCP to do surgery on your brain? No. You would go to a board certified neurologist (specialist). See? That's all I'm trying to compare.

I think that there should be a main consultant that writes the "plan" for the child and that this plan should detail who will provide services, what type, measureable goals, how they are measured, how they are tracked/recorded, retested, and also detail the plans on getting there via the various providers of service. (for instance I think that the speech path should give parents the summarized plan during each 9wk period that they are going to do and document changes along the plan so that parents can literally watch the progress). I believe this should be attached documentation in the IEP and child's file.

If this is how it is supposed to be done, then the people in our support group with children who are ASD definatley have never received services like this. Some of our kids are 21+ in age with the youngest so far just turning 4.

I'm sick of laws that are vague. This is just something I would like to see clarified. I only hope that it goes in the direction I'm hoping for ;).

Thanks for listening and replying. I value your opinion.

Jess

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 04-13-2007 - 7:02pm

Well first I have to say in part I misunderstood your first question.

With regards to journal articles and such I thought the question you were asking is how does a district prove that a method they are using is scientifically based. Well that is by providing the scientific evidence that it is through peer review journals.

However, it seems what you are asking is if they are implementing it in a scientific way? That is completely different from if they are using a method which has been determined as scientifically based.

You see this is so that kids are using things like say ABA or TEACCH rather than bug chewing therapy or what ever the newest weirdest thing is. There is debate whether or not SI therapy has scientific evidence as well as RDI, dolphin therapy, facilitated communication, etc. Some of these are more mainstream and it is good that the education system is demanding scientific evidence that it works rather than just funding what ever is out there. When we shop for something we want proof that it works, this is no different.

As for your other questions laws always are not very clear. It is part of our governmental system. They make laws which have room for interpretation and then the judicial system interprets the laws. There is no way I can answer the other questions. I gave you the information to the best of my ability. If you disagree with what your district is doing then you need to take them perhaps to due process and go through the legal system.

It kind of seems to me from your response to me that you have an agenda of some sort. This is because I felt that you seem to respond angrily to my neutral response where I thought I was simply answering a question. I don't think you are going to get adequate responses to these questions on a board. You may get folks to commiserate with you and provide support but if you truly need answers to those questions to access a better education for your child then you may want to research if there are advocacy groups or lawyers in your area which can help. Often there are free and non-profit resources for this.

Renee

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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-22-2004
Sat, 04-14-2007 - 10:03am

Oh! I'm not angry I'm excited! I do have an agenda. See, for 5 years including EI w/ dd I have gotten NOTHING from OK school districts. We moved a couple of time with dh's residency. Anyways, all I'm saying is that I believe that whoever is working with a child on whatever "therapy" it should be logically and legally planned out the same as teachers plan their classroom. There is room for adjustment always. But here where I am our providers are "winging it".

As far as my district. I presented them with demand for form 9 of refusal to acknowlege my dd's disability and why they agreed she needs ABA but refuse to provide it, even after their "expert" advised them she needed ABA.

I'm sure there has to be a fabulous school somewhere where these kids are really getting great services, not half **** services. See, even if I go through due process (which is next), and even if I got my heart's desires on her IEP, I still have to get the teachers, paras, providers of intervention to ACTUALLY DO THE SERVICES and do them professionally and correctly. Legally on paper you can almost put anything down. But how do you change the human heart?

Anyways, I was really looking for someone who may have already posed these questions I asked before and what their "state" interpreted it to be. I think your response was really good.

So, I guess I do have an agenda of sort. I want my kid to get something good. I want my employees little girl who has down syndrome to get more than 15 mins of speech therapy and that is all she gets (she is 4 and non verbal). I want my best friends dd to get an IEP since she has AS and my friend after requesting an IEP got turned in to DHS (which they figured out was a false report from her school so she got through it same day), and now it is 2 yrs later for her, and still no IEP.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 04-14-2007 - 11:02am

Oh yes, they definitely should have a plan but that isn't covered really by the scientific evidence part.

They need to be implementing her IEP and I would request information in writing of exactly how they are doing that as well as the data that proves she is making progress. They need to be taking data and without a plan then they aren't.

You get to make a plan by making sure they have good objectives and making sure they implement those objectives effectively.

Have you filed a compliance complaint with the state yet? If they are not implementing her IEP then that is the best way to address it. They should investigate whether the school is in compliance with the IEP and if not will determine that they should provide compensatory services.

Renee

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iVillage Member
Registered: 12-22-2003
Sat, 04-14-2007 - 11:04am

The unfortunate part of your situation is that yes, all states differ in their interpretation of IDEA. Even within the state, every school district is different. I applaud your desire to fight the system, but agree with Renee that you're probably not going to get much helpful information from those of us who frequent this board. Perhaps, if you haven't already, you should pose your question on the Spec. Ed./IEP board?

In our personal situation, we're choosing to exercise our right to move to an area where the schools are better able to serve our special needs children. Yes, it means we'll be leaving the state DH and I both grew up in and moving thousands of miles away from all of our family members. But in the end, it's the only logical option for making sure our kids get the best services available within our financial contraints. (No, I'm not offering this as an answer for others. I realize that it's not possible for everybody to just up and move.) Our state is a mess. Our school district is cr*p and it's only getting worse, we have to constantly fight/threaten litigation for any services, and essentially nobody is trained in squat when it comes to autism. So I can definitely feel for your situation. But our youngest and "most affected" is almost 7, and I just don't have the time to wait for the legal system to right the wrongs of the school district.

Oh, and just for the record, our youngest has never had a "defined" method of treatment such as ABA. But she has made incredible developmental gains with the hodge-podge approach. She gets speech, OT, PT as well as Behavorial Intervention and Social Skills training. No, her teacher is not trained in autism. No, her 1:1 is not trained in autism (or anything else for that matter). But the school personnel really do want what's best for her, and we all work together as a team to help her within the limitations of the district. She went from saying less than 10 words upon entering K, to talking almost non-stop at the end of 1st grad. She went from tantruming at the sight of a pencil or crayon to drawing for pleasure. So no, I can't agree with your belief that there must be some "defined methodology" in place for a child to successfully reach his or her measurable goals.

Good luck in your endeavors~

Amy

Meez 3D avatar avatars games

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 04-14-2007 - 3:58pm

Ah, thanks for the reminder Amy,

There actually is evidence for the hodgepodge approach. The National Association of Sciences put out a monster report on educating young children with autism which ended up being a large book. It was co-authored by many of the most respected folks in autism. The report their findings about efficacy of treatments, what are best practices, etc.

They found that the specific type of therapy didn't matter as much as the children being actively engaged in learning at least 25 hours a week. At least as well as I can remember this was the recomendation, I can grab the link quickly enough.

One of the main points was that more than using one specific type of therapy what was important was gearing toward the individual childs learning profile. Thier needs, stregths, how they learn etc. And from what I recall they did recomend an ecletic approach.

Renee

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iVillage Member
Registered: 05-27-2003
Sat, 04-14-2007 - 4:11pm

Hey Renee , What report is that? I have read the ABA v ecelectic and the MASDEC report? Both support ABA , I would be very intrested in the report that you are refering to. Could you send me a link?

Thanks,

Jackie

 


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