Neighbor Problems-long but not OT
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| Thu, 08-09-2007 - 6:39am |
This is a "What would you do?" post.
I have two ASD munchkins, 6 and 3. The 6 year old has a friend on the block. They have been friends since my son was three.
The friend is extremely active and gregarious and moves from activity to activity fast. He has problems with sounds. He chews on everything. He has a very limited list of acceptable foods. His play skills are limited, and he still seeks out sticks to carry around. Outgoing as he is, he can not hanlde loosing games, not getting his way, or any kind of frustration. He is 9 months older and a school year ahead of my son. So he is one of the very youngest in his grade. He started in Catholic schools but fell behind academically. When he was in kindergarten, his mom considered it to be a function of his being the very youngest in the class. In first grade, Mom understood that Catholic school was not meeting his needs and transferred him mid-year into the same public elementary school that my son attended as a kindergartener, with an IEP for learning disabilities, which I think misses the "point," but it is still much better for this guy, and he recovered a lot of academic ground in public school.
All of the above is to introduce this friend's Dad. Dad, his many brothers, and all of his brothers many kids (the freinds cousins) all went or go to Catholic school. Dad does not see his son as needing something different. Dad sees his son as trying to mess things up for him. Dad also has poor parenting skills, and is unable to enforce the most basic rules. For example, he will not follow through on not allowing his son to play with the outdoor hose. In addition, Dad does not ever try to identify a need and fill it, such as by allowing a kiddy pool to be filled for water play, while insisting that the hose stay off.
Dad accidentally dumps his son on me a lot. I say accidentally, because I don't beleive he knows what he is doing, but many people would assume that it is puposeful. For example, Dad never carries bottles or diapers for his infant, and may appear at our house with his 6 year old and his infant (probably because the 6 year old asked him, he said no, and then 6 year old pestered him until he got his way.) For a while, they all play together, but need a lot of parental supervision. They want to run in circles around my house, and they need help to engage in an appropriate game. Dad hangs out for a while but probably does not "get" why I'm interupting having them grab sticks and run around the house. My explainations are about my children needing to work on taking turns, etc. or about defense of my house or supplies. For example, Freind and my DS#2 are very poor at putting caps on markers and resisting the impulse to write on things other than the paper. So just having them sit down and draw requires almost constant adult attention. Dad probably thinks I should just let them ruin the markers and clean the walls later. Then, after I've puzzled this Dad a bit with my parenting, Dad has to go up the street to get the baby a bottle, and, of course, his older son stays with mine. Dad does not reappear.
Dad is willing to take my son, but his supervision in lousy, to put it mildly. The kids are allowed to eat whatever. They watch Nicolodean, which is not allowed in my house. (Although they are allowed to watch the same shows on videos andDVD's so im not perfect.) Or, when the kids are not at the TV, Dad puts on news or a sports show. I don't like DS watching so much news. Just yesterday, I drove past Dad and Friend and another kid. Dad was letting them ride a bike and a scooter on the street with no helmet. (carrying an infant so he could not possibly intervene physically.) I stopped to say hello and Dad told the kids that it was time to turn around and go home. The kids said no. I drove up the block to my house. I couldn't help thinking that he could have been taking care of my son, letting him bicycle or scooter without a helmet, in the street, disrespecting direction (time to go home) etc. I took out two helmets, and drove to find them. They were much farther away. The kids liked the helmets, and put them on. I told Dad, "I had to bring these; I'll get nightmares." and he laughed nervously.
This is the WWYD part: I need some respite. I need time to myself. My son needs to work on his friendship. But I feel like Im making a huge "appropriateness" compromise when i let this Dad supervise my son and his. And I'm just taking on a 3rd high-maintenance child when I let Dad accidentally dump his son on me. Dad has no self-awareness, and thinks that people who are upset by his behavior have their own problems. (I see this in his marriage, where he NEVER feels that there is anything he can do about his wife's being upset.) I would confront him with a "I really want our kids to spend time together, but I have some resevations about the differences in our parenting styles..) but I don't think it would work. He wouldn't understand. It might make him scared to see me, which means our children will see less of each other.
This is really stressing me out. I don't want to mess with my son's best freindship.
-Sidney


Is this guy a stay at home dad? and How well do you know the wife?
First, It sounds like dad has some issues of his own and likely needs some training. Think of treating him the same way you would talk to and teach your kids but with an adult twist. Talk very concretely and set certain boundaries. You don't have to confront him and explain in generalities, but more concrete.
For instance, if ds is going to his house you can 1st set some really limited time boundaries. DS can go but I need him back in 20 minutes for lunch. Or I am leaving for .....I will be there to get him in 20 minutes. What are you guys planning on doing? Then maybe one direction at a time like if ds is going to be riding a bike he needs to wear a helmet.
Make these rules clear to DS as well. Let him know that you want him to play with this other boy but that you need to be able to trust him that he is going to follow your rules when he is at their house. Make a written list of the BIGGIES for him to follow. Wear a helmet when riding sort of thing.
Second, you need to set some boundaries for yourself. It is ok to say his DS can't stay there if it isn't convenient for you. Let him stay some but you don't have to be the daily sitter. If dad is leaving to get a bottle, tell him "ok but I need you to come get him by ..... " If you need to make an excuse like "I am going to the store".
Anyway, however it works for you I would set some clear boundaries. If this guy doesn't get that others get mad I wouldn't even go there. Just this is the way it is. Then I would talk to his wife about this as well if you can.
Renee
Dear Renee,
Thanks for reading all that, and replying. After I posted it, I realized it was just too much!
The guy is not a stay-at-home Dad. He works traditional hours, and his wife works over night on Friday and Saturday, so she needs sleep badly in the mornings on those days. Due the activity and sound level of his 6 year old, he can't stay inside without depriving his wife of sleep. He also doesn't plan the day out proactively. So they hit the streets at friends lead, and end up at our place. To this Dad, it is all an accident; life just happens to him.
I know the wife as well as him, or better, because I am more likely to really talk with her about things like our elementary school or IEP's. Yet I don't see as much of her because of her working weekends. On weeknights, she sometimes brings their kids for a walk on our street, and I hear her son begging to see mine, but she sizes up the situation and sees what she can do to help, teaches her son to wait for an invitation, etc. She helps the children focus on appropriate games when she's visting. She carries diapers and formula. But if its her sleep time, or if its late afternnon and she has had the baby and her bouncy six year old for hours, she may (justifyably) kick them out with Dad the moment he gets home from work.
I am certain that Dad has some issues of his own. He is classic Aspie. (I have not licence or business Dxing, but I said it anyway.) I have laid out this ground rule but he doesn't get it. If you visit, you must support what I am doing. Specifically, if I am trying to get my children to eat dinner, you must do the same thing by sitting at the table and having your son do the same. I always put a plate in front of his son whenever they appear. (And he always eats it if Dad fed him, because Dad just lets him take one bite and quit. He is a really hard kid to keep sitting.)Friend keeps saying he's finished, and I have to tell him that he must stay until his friend's are finished. Dad has almost never sits at the table unless I specifically tell him. He wants to go out of the room with the baby, which makes all three want to follow him, plus it dumps his son on me, of course. But since he would not ordinarily prompt his son to sit or eat, he thinks I'm just doing something unneccesary. If he doesn't go out of the room, he brings his chair waaaay back from the table.
I don't know what I'm going to do. Last weekend, my son complied with asking this Dad permission before turning on their hose. (A big issue every summer day; they make a big mess with the hose.) But the Dad consented because HE DIDN"T EVEN LISTEN TO THE QUESTION BEING ASKED! I said Dad's name really loudly, and asked, "Do you realize that you just gave __ permission to turn on the hose?" He smiled sheepishly, and said, "No, please," in a way that none of our children would understand. I translated to my son that he made a mistake, and it is not time for the hose. Ugh! There is really no use having that Dad around, except to lug around the baby.
I think I really have to get over thinking that I am going to get a "break" with this friendship. I like your written rules idea, which will also help my son. In addition, I think I will post the obvious on the walls of my house, like put caps on markers before opening a new one, draw on paper only, etc., and ask Dad to help with those rules. I'll also make a list of games that are outside only games and ask Dad for help enforceing that. (This is tricky, becasue friend and my little guy, who are very much alike save for 3 1/2 years, love to go out, but my six year old would rather switch to an inside game, so we have to talk the friends through the decision making.) I will also tell DH about this and ask him to tell this to friend. That might help him think that it is not a "wifey" trivial complaint.
Sigh; you would think that I could just lay down the law and he'd start helping because he gets soooo much in return. But I don't think he knows how to be helpful, so he will just slink away, my son will lose a friend, and friend will lose my son.
Thanks for "listening,"
Sidney
Hi Sidney- sorry for chiming in late on this one.
Honestly, I don't have much advice for you. It sounds to me like this dad isn't going to "get it" no matter what you do...and the one thing I've learned when it comes to dealing with other parents is that-as much as we'd like to- we can't dictate how they choose to handle their children. Therefore, when they're caring for our children, we often have to compromise our standards or break off the relationship. The unfortunate part is that, in the long run, the children are the ones who suffer.
I'd probably do my best to set very specific boundaries, as Renee suggested. I'd also have a long talk with the mother who may be better able to influence her hubby. But I wouldn't do any of it if I wasn't also prepared to end the relationship. Yes, that seems harsh, but your family has to come first and your son will have loads of "best friends" over the years. Is continuing this relationship really worth compromising everything you're trying to teach your son?
Having been forced to end a very good friendship because of similar issues, I know it's hard. (DH and I were very close to the couple we "broke it off with".) And yes, it still bothers our children that they don't get to see this family anymore. But in the end, we used it as an opportunity to teach them some important life lessons, and we were able to make them understand that keeping them safe, and not exposing them to inappropriate situations was the most important thing!
Good Luck~
Amy
Hi Sidney and I agree with previous posters.
Although I do think this sounds like you could allow the boy to be friends with your son and just way limit the time your son is away from you under the care of this father. Does your son have other friends? I certainly would look for a few other kids and help your child build friendships elsewhere so that you don't have to only rely on this one child and his father for companionship. Many of our kids do not have loads of other friends without help and it is important, I have found, to also look for parents who YOU are compatable with and build grownup relationships as well, as in co-parenting/friendship-assisting, etc..
But in this case it sounds like the father is more the problem and the mother is super great. While this is frustrating at the moment, the younger child will get older and easier to care for the mother IS someone you can work with. I also think some parenting style differences can also be worked with as an opportunity, as our children can learn that even though another child is allowed to do things they are not, that doesn't change your expectations for your child ... and it also doesn't mean those other people are bad people, etc.
We are probably more lenient with Malcolm than parents of some of his friends BTW, and yet Malcolm has had to learn that he needs to listen to other parents when he does overnights, for example, we have no problem with the kids eating and drinking in our living room while playing, but in other households they must always eat at the table. Always. I know Malcolm has had problems with this when away from home, but he really is learning. Great opportunity.
Safety is clearly another issue, yes, I would insist on safety. We have never run into this problem. And if you are finding that this father is really inept about safety, well, I would find ways to keep your child out of his care without you there, period. so then I would keep this child as a friend, but only when you can be in charge.
Just my thoughts. Friendship is so key for our kids. I have never had to end a friendship of my son's and I hope I never have to. And at this point, my 10-year-old would not lightly put up with such parental interference, LOL!
yours,
Sara
Dear Amy,
Late???? I'm so thankful you responded. ((Amy))
You are so right that Dad is not going to get it. The scales have started to fall from my eyes as I have been posting on this subject and reading responses. Basically, it is not all bad. It's just not realistic that I have a neighbor with whom I can drop my (easier!) child off with. (I wrote him off for my bolting 3 year old when I was with my 5 year old, his 6 year old, and not only lost my little guy at a community day, but did not have the judgement to report it right away.) Duh, Sidney. It's taking a while to face the facts.
I'm not sure how long a talk I'm going to have with the Mom on this subject. This man is not all bad, of course. (He could not do any child care, but he does -- he could do things that were actively mean, but he doesn't) But as hard as he is for me to deal with, imagine what it must be like to be married to him. I hear about some of the stress, and I don't think asking Mom to fix my problems with her husband is going to allievate Mom's stress at all. Mom is really stressed out already. If I speak to her about this, it will be in the context of whatever she starts. I already risk getting her mad at me by setting limits with her husband. "How can you say such a thing to my husband!?" yet I think that if i do anger her, she will first EXPLODE (she's firey) then understand after the embers cool, and feel thankful.
I'm not all that optimistic about my son's future quantities of best friends. But I am confident that my son will be a giving and honest friend.
Sidney
PS: Love that picture of claire. It reminds me of my 6 year old watching rain on the window.
Dear Sara,
You are right. My son can be freinds with Friend. Dad can not take care of my son more than superficially. If my son gets bad habits, (like learning to ignore adults more than his usual auditory-processing-deficient self) then he has to spend less time at Friend's house. If Friend is just too much trouble, he has to go home. But I really love Friend, as hard as he is, and it is a little like kicking my own out of the house.
I guess when I boil this down, the post is all about "WAAAAHHHHH! I don't get any help!!!!!" "Pooooooor me."
And yes, I do need more friends. I'm working on that. I actually have some, but they are set aside for my ASD parenting life. I need to cultivate those friendships. And I need new ones that understand the ASD parenting life.
It made me laugh when I read about respecting differences. My own son was told that he could get a hamster on a certain date. The future date was so that we could prepare son with animal care rules, etc. Friend was so excited, and pestered his parents for one, too. But his parents said that he absolutely could not have a hamster because he has a cat. Once my freind (see I do have one!) and I were with my kids and Friend, and spent an entire afternoon helping Friend respect his parents' decision. We told him that families are different. We pointed out that he got to have a cat! We helped him write a note to his parents saying that he is sad that he can't have a hamster, but that he does not want the hamster do get killed by the cat, so he will ask again when the cat dies. Basically, Friend wore us out, and finially at the end of the day, he accepted that his family will be different. That evening, a week before Son was going to get his hamster, Freind got a hamster. No waiting period. Just instant reward for obnoxious behavior. Good grief.
Next time, I'll focus my energy on teaching my own son about families.
thanks for posting,
Sidney