So now he is gifted?!

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Registered: 02-01-2005
So now he is gifted?!
25
Fri, 02-24-2006 - 3:24pm

Hi all,

I've had an emotional roller coaster of a week. On Monday the behavior therapist said he isn't qualified to dx Ethan because he is too 'complicated'. He mentioned a possible thought disorder and said he might benefit from a psychiatrist and RX respiridal (?sp) He was going to talk to ped, but never did and never called me as promised, either.

Yesterday I met with the school psychologist and also the speech teacher who keeps tabs on Ethan in class. They both said that Ethan is thriving in school, is popular and happy and the kids do not have a problem at this point with his ummm 'unique' conversations. He is obedient and has no meltdowns at school (saves those for me :^) although he is improving at home again, too. They were very reluctant to think of Ethan on RX with a dx of schizophrenia--.

Then the psychologist asked if we had ever considerd the possibility that Ethan might be gifted. (Hey, what mom hasn't! :^) She said with his music and art abilities it is possible that he is gifted and that might account for some of his conversations. You can have a normal conversation with Ethan and then he goes off to very imaginitive thought. He can easily be brought back tho, which really makes me skeptical of the schizophrenia possibility.

At this point we are going to stay the course and not go to a psychiatrist or even pursue a dx. Does this sound reasonable? So far he has seen two psychologists and a Ped and none of them knows quite what to make of Ethan. He is reading and writing and even starting to do math in his head. He covers 25 papers a day with his drawings--then he brings them to us to tell the stories that go with the pics. He is coming out of the emotional turmoil he was in a few weeks ago and is becoming my happy little boy again.

Any suggestions on what else to pursue?

TIA!
Debbi

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Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 03-01-2006 - 12:15pm

I totally agree with you on all points. I did remember that autism was once used for some of the symptoms.

I couldn't believe either that a doctor would even suggest schizophrenia so easily in a child. That is a very serious diagnosis. I have met 2 childhood schizophrenics in my life (both when I worked in a residential school) and it is very serious and different. One boy attacked me when I was pregnant with Mike (3 days before my due date) because I was covered in bees according to him. This is a boy who had the sweetest personality. The school I worked at did not agree to meds and tried taking him off and these episodes happened all the time. It was scarey to watch. Another boy had to wear a helmet because his hallucinations would send him head first into walls and cause him to have severe self injury behaviors because his hallucinations told him too.

Ooops, late, gotta run.

Renee

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Registered: 02-01-2005
Wed, 03-01-2006 - 1:27pm

I really appreciate the information you are all sharing! I did want to mention that the Dr. PHD psychologist was the one who said he wasn't qualified to make the diagnosis and then went on to say schizophrenia and mention anti-phychotic meds. It was the school psychologist who asked about testing for giftedness. She made the point that when we went to the dr. we were asking about Aspergers, so the doc didn't even look at any of the attributes that might show giftedness.

The frustrating things is, all this happened last week and the Dr. was supposed to meet last Tuesday with my ped and call me that same day. My ped and I are both still waiting to hear from him!! We haven't paid his $300 bill yet (we are self-pay) and I am becoming more reluctant to do so!!

Debbi

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Registered: 04-07-2003
Wed, 03-01-2006 - 3:59pm

Okay, I'm freaking out just a little bit. My MIL was schizophrenic. My kids have AS-type behaviors (NLD, maybe). The therapist who gave us the tentative diagnosis said she was leaning towards saying dd was NLD and had schizotypia. I didn't focus too much on the schizotypia statement before since I haven't seen anything that made me worried about hallucinations (I figured dr was throwing that in there since she knew MIL history of schizophrenia), but now that I'm reading about ties to autism and schizophrenia, I'm really getting kind of concerned. Where do I learn more about this autism-schizo relationship?

I've been on a multi-month-long wait to get into the Kennedy Krieger Institute in Baltimore, and I'm really hoping our wait is up soon, so I can get more definitive testing, diagnosis and info!

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Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 03-01-2006 - 5:09pm

Ok, one thing I should say here though is that as far as I know there is a world of difference between childhood schizophrenia and the typical schizophrenia. That is the person who was quirky younger and then started to have hallucinations and such in late adolescence and early adult hood. My understanding is that adult onset schizophrenia (though I don't know that this is the proper name for it at all) is much more common and treatable.

Now please, someone who knows more than me (which is loads of people in this case) please correct me, but my understanding is that schizophrenia in adulthood is not as rare and treatable. Though the same diagnosis, I believe there are alot of differences and that the early onset is much more severe and difficult to treat.

That being said, a fair number of kids with bipolar will have hallucinations as well and some will have a comorbid diagnosis of Aspergers. However, I have heard even with these kids that they are not schizophenic nor do they meet the criteria for childhood schizophrenia. My friends son is one of these types of kids. He is severe bipolar, has had the hallucinations (pre-meds in particular) and has a fair number of PDD type symptoms, etc. He is significantly impaired and it has never been mentioned for him and I believe it may have even been ruled out. However, on an adult level it is much different. You probably know better because you have a family member with it.

I think the links provided a couple posts ago has aload of information on in. I have to go and relook. It is something that I have worried about with Mike in particular, that is for sure. My point was though to diagnose or even suggest it at 6yo in a child who has some quirks and concerns and is just starting the diagnostic process is premature and pretty darn serious.

Does that make sense? I worry about it with my Mike too. It came up once last year when he took a major down fall. If you go to my online magazine, the mom who did alot of writing for our healthwise section goes over what she went through with her son. He went drastically downhill right at 18 or 19 and was hospitalized. I think one of his diagnosis then was schizophrenia and his mom did research and found dietary and the way he processed food was the culprit. She was the one who convinced me to go sugar free and she talks alot about that stuff on her articles. Her son is now med free and living independently.

Renee

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Registered: 04-07-2003
Wed, 03-01-2006 - 7:04pm

Thanks. I guess my biggest concern is a selfish one -- I don't want to have to deal with one more thing. Some days I have a hard time remembering that this is probably tough on them, too, but I am soooooo tired of dealing with their issues and moods. I really, really, don't want to add life-threatening hallucinations on top of the mix (MIL, at least, had hallucinations encouraging her to kill herself &/or family members). My kids are carbon copies of their dad who is a carbon copy of his mom. I have never seen such strong DNA (physically, behaviorally, food likes, thought processes, bowel habits, etc. -- it's all the same). Also selfishly, I don't want to have adult psychotic children dependent on me for the rest of their/my life. I was already worried about their quality of life and ability to function independently with just the NLD (I know independence is possible -- dh sort of has, but it's not been an easy life for him or those around him), and now this just makes me even more afraid. In a day or two I'll have calmed down and accepted it as a possibility. I know I should be grateful that their problems aren't worse, but I'm just not.

You mentioned your online magazine, but I'm not familiar with it or where to find it. I'd be very interested in reading it if you could let me know how.

More positively, thanks for all the info. Even the bad info at least helps me mentally prepare myself for what we're dealing with.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-02-2006 - 12:06am

ACK! Shoot me NOW!!!! I haven't posted the link here recently! There are a number of lovely ladies from the board here who help out on the magazine, write regularly, and even edit some of our sections (You know who you are!)

www.asdrendrewolf.org

March issue is going to be a bit late. Candes is having computer/internet problems currently so the feb issue is still up. There are also archives of old articles. The ones I talked about are in the healthwise section.

If you want a specific link let me know.

Renee

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Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-02-2006 - 2:21am

I am sorry, it is my fault really that you are freaking out. There is no causal relationship between autism and schizophrenia. Any other relationship is speculative at this point. The point is that many of the symptoms are similar (but not the same). Various people are investigating whether there may be some connection between not only these two conditions, but other psychoses and conditions as well (bi-polar and Tourette's among them). The connection sought is at the genetic level or in the way the brain is structured, that sort of thing. It is not in the sense of schizophrenia leading to autism or vice-versa.

I have been interested in this for a long time, because my brother has schizophrenia. There are no other cases of schizophrenia in the family, as far as we know, and we have pretty good records. On my mother's side of the family there is a history of depression, and on my father's side there is a strong streak of autistic traits. We do not have anyone with an AS dx, but I am fairly sure that were my dad and uncle in school now, they would be evaluated ASAP. My dad and uncle are identical twins and each has 6 (known) children. Among those children there is a remarkably high incidence of autistic traits as well (but no dx), and then this one child who has schizophrenia. Some of the kids are still young (10, 14, 15 and 16), so we may end up with another case of schizophrenia perhaps (I worry about the 10yo). I also think that the 14yo would get some kind of AS dx if he were in the US.

If I were you, I really would ask for some explanation and elaboration of the term "schizotypia." You say that the dx is tentative, so wait for more competent input before you freak yourself out. Going to Krieger sounds excellent. Also keep in mind that just because you have the genes predisposing you for schizophrenia that does not mean that you will have the disease. One of the known triggers for schizophrenia is a sudden shift in environment. There is a slightly higher incidence of schizophrenia among immigrants, for example. So, if you know that your kids may be at risk, you might want to avoid a cross-country move in adolescence, for example (but PLEASE discuss this with a professional, do not go by my lay-woman's word). I am really sorry to have worried you so.

Edit: What is NLD?




Edited 3/2/2006 6:21 am ET by sild
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Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-02-2006 - 2:28am

Yes, that is an important point, BTW. Celiac disease can cause schizophrenia. It is a mystery to me why it is not standard to test people who present with symptoms of schizophrenia (and autism) for metabolic disorders.

And yes, childhood-onset schizophrenia is generally far more severe and more difficult to treat than adult-onset. Your description of the child who attacked you because were covered in bees sounds exactly like schizophrenia to me. IOW, it is far more serious and baffling than a meltdown or a quirk.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-02-2006 - 3:07am

Yes, I did catch the points about who suggested what etc. I was just trying to point out the irony of having schizophrenia and giftedness suggested for the same child, in the same week, even if it were by two different people. IMO, it is highly irresponsible of the psychologist to even breathe such a suggestion. He said he is not qualified and he is exactly right, which is why he should keep his trap shut. If he has concerns about the child's behavior that lie outside his own expertise, he should refer you to an appropriate psychiatrist.

How come the school is asking you to test for giftedness? Isn;t the school required to do the testing, or is it private?

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-01-2005
Thu, 03-02-2006 - 8:28am

No, the school is public, but I think they will test him in the next year if he continues to show signs of giftedness. I'm considering having the Dr. test him, since I certainly don't feel like I have rec'd my money's worth from him at this point :^) BTW< I called his office again yesterday for the 4th time in 10 days and he STILL hasn't called me back!! He told me last Monday he would speak to Ped and call me on TUESDAY of last week--nothing yet! ARGH!

Well, today is my birthday, so I am going to take the day off from fighting with the DR :^) But he better look out tomorrow!! LOL

Debbi