"Terrible 2's" at age 4?

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-19-2005
"Terrible 2's" at age 4?
10
Tue, 09-05-2006 - 1:58pm

Does anyone with an older child have any BTDT adivice? I am trying to analyze the situation with Eric now and I am trying to convince myself this is a good thing, but don't know what to do about it.

Eric has come a long way in the last few months both emotionally and in terms of fine motor skills. He now has a lot more self-confidence. All of this is good. However, with his desire for independence has come a defiant attitude. Lots of "no" "I don't want to" you get the idea. Very un-cooperative unless he can do things HIS way. This is often combined with blood curtling "screams." I institued a "scream" jar for that, which seems to be working. I put 4 gummies (um, "reinforcers") in at the start of the day. If he "screams" he gets a warning, if he doesn't stop by 1-2-3, I take out a gummy. He gets what is left at the end of the day. I know, it is bribery, but I'm desparate. Sticker or token systems don't work yet--he still needs more immediate gratification.

This is not the biggest problem though, it's his new "Houdini" abilities. You may recall as a little guy we had trouble keeping him in his seat belt, keeping him from climbing out the window, running away. We solved those problems with various baby-proofing devices. Well, unfortunately, due to his improved motor skills the devices don't work anymore.

He doesn't try to get out of his seat belt or the window anymore, but he continues to try to get out the front door. He can now turn the protector thing on the knob, can undo the dead bolt, and I caught him with a chair climbing up to undo the chain on the top of the door. All our windows and doors sound with an alarm when opened, fortunately. So far I have always been there in time to stop him.

But reasoning with him does not work. When I ask him why he wants to go out his answers are based in his internal fantasy world. Like, "I needed to let in ...(pick your favorite Pixar character)" or "I want to go on an adventure hike to Mars." I guess I should look into some lock that needs a key from inside. Any ideas?

The other big problem is running away in public places, parking lots, etc. He will not hold hands. He is now bigger and faster and I cannot just "manhandle" him the way I used to do. My reaction in these dangerous situations is to scream myself, which is not a very good response, especially when I am trying to get him to stop screaming whenever he is angry! We need some new techniques. It's getting dangerous and I need to get a handle on this now.

I tried "floor timing" it with having Buzz Lightyear hold hands with Woody in a parking lot, when one of them didn't hold hands, I made truck go by and hit one of them who had to go to the hospital, etc. But that didn't really work. It just came off as slap-stick. Eric doesn't really get cause and effect anyway.

I am going to a 5 week parenting class sponsored by a local ABA place starting tonight, so maybe I'll get some tips.

But I wondered if you all had any ideas, especially about the running thing. And if your kids went through a delayed "terrible twos" phase. At 2 Eric couldn't even really talk, it seems to me now that though his speech is at a 4 year old level, he's just getting to the developmental level of a 2/3 yo, especially emotionally, and beginning to test limits.

Katherine

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-09-2005
Tue, 09-05-2006 - 3:45pm

I have seen and heard NT kids go though an icky time at 4.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
iVillage Member
Registered: 06-25-2003
Fri, 09-08-2006 - 1:31pm

Katherine,


Sorry for the delay in responding to this. I have been racking my brains trying to think of good suggestions, and the only ones I can come up with are dress him in really bright clothes and wear running shoes!


Seriously:


Peter was a 'bolter'.

-Paula

visit my blog at www.onesickmother.com
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 09-08-2006 - 4:17pm

Yes kids had delayed terrible 2's and yes we had the runner problem.

For the front door I would suggest replacing the deadbolt with one that has a keyed lock on both sides. If Eric cannot work a keyed lock yet, you can just hang the key up next to the door on a hook up fairly high. If he can work a key they you may need to be more creative where you put the key but you will want to have it readily available NEXT too the door incase there is ever a fire so you can get out.

For running in public, well, I ended up having to manhandle Dave quite longer than I would have liked. Had killer biceps though! If it wasn't for Mike having trouble then too I would have likely been easier to wait him out that I was able to do later when Mike was in full day school and dave was still in preschool. Probably 4 or nearly 5 and Dave is a HUGE guy too as in tall and solid but slim. He is strong as an ox as well so at 4 or 5 he was more the size of 6 or 7 with the strength of at least a 7 yo. It is not right for a 4yo to be cut like he was. He has a baby six pack. So my work was cut out for me.

What I did end up doing is waiting. We would be somewhere and we wouldn't go until he held my hand. He was a runner for streets and it was plain scary. I would hold onto his hand with a nice firm grip and he would flop to the ground or he would be in the car and refuse to hold my hand. I just stood there and waited and we weren't going anywhere until he held my hand and walked appropriately.

I did this first going places that he wanted to go like the park. I wouldn't let him out of the van until he held my hand and if he tried to let go I held on tight and if he flopped I stood there holdign his hand until he stood up and walked. If he pulls really hard then I would pick him up and bring him back to the car and start again.

When he does walk with you use loads and loads of verbal praise.

One note of caution. If you are doing this be careful not to pull on his hand. If he drops to the ground, bring your hand down too. If he pulls away to hard, pick him up under the arms. It is really easy with small kids to pull out their elbows by pulling on thier hands. Most kids do better by the time they are 2 or 3 with this but our ASD kids tend to be a little on the low tone side. I would hold his hand firmly but I would not pull on it, kwim?

Renee

Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-19-2005
Fri, 09-08-2006 - 4:39pm

Thanks for the advice, Renee. I really appreciate it. The waiting inside the car, getting him to hold my hand before we even get out is a good idea. I have been getting him out, then trying to make him hold hands. The dropping to the ground is a good point too. Eric is a runner not just out our front door, but also particularly bad in parking lots especially. And yes it is scary.

He has also started doing it indoors in a kind of "fight or flight" way. Not sure what to do in these circumstances. Like at speech the other day, he needed to pee. Why he didn't just say so, I am not sure. I think it was bc the ST had a student observer and maybe he didn't want to say anything in front of her. So Eric just opened the door and bolted, knocking over several people in the hall. He never did this kind of thing before indoors at all. What he tended to do in the past was hide under tables.

I will have to look into the key situation. One of my friends who also has a tall ASD 4yo has her dead bolt rigged up on the top of the door, which is interesting. But Eric has been pulling the chair over to the door to take the chain off that is on top, plus he can work the dead bolt. So I think I need the key idea, like you said. I don't think he has figured out how to get the key into the slot, though if it were in he could turn it.

The parenting class I was planning to attend got cancelled, so I am really bummed, thought they might reschedule. I had so many questions right now at this stage.

Do you have any BTDT experience for the screaming thing? Time outs don't work at all, in fact, seems to make things worse. My gummy jar idea works pretty well, it just seems so primitive, but I guess whatever works. OT thinks I need to go back to picture schedules for everything, which I had kind of lapsed out of bc he didn't seem to need it.

Katherine

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 09-09-2006 - 12:02am

Depends on why he is screaming. Is it stimmy, over excited, or is it anger, reaction, or getting attention? What is causing it will determine what to do.

Of course we are STILL dealing with this one with Mike and UGH! what a pain.

As for the running inside for now I would just position myself by doors at things like speech where this might happen if it is a situation where you think it might happen. Then when he makes for the door you can stop him easily cue him to use his words and reinforce him when he does.

One great behavioral dude taught me an awesome lesson once. The best thing to do most times is to arrange the environment to your advantage. So for instance, if a child has behavior problems over a tv, you unplug the tv in such a way as they don't know why it isn't working. Suddenly when they realize it doesn't work they give up and the fight is over. Same for the running. Rather than chasing it is better to arrange the environment to minimize the ability to get out. So positioning yourself infront of a door, utilizing a lock they can't undo, will just make the reinforcer disappear and the behavior disappear (until they figure out what you did to the tv or how to work the lock). Staying 1 step ahead is a good thing.

Another thing I have used for doors is a eye hook with a spring that takes a good amount of fine motor and motor planning to use. These eye hooks have a sping loaded latch that you have to pull back while unhooking the hook. Not easy if you are 4 and stretching to the top of the door. Dave was a houdini too and this worked great for him.

Funny, it was Dave that gave me all those problems and I still say he isn't ASD. My ASD kids didn't have that kind of motor skill or creativity to do that stuff. Cait didn't open a regular door until she was like 5 and was probably more than 6 before she could manage a baby proof door knob if even then. Those were the days! Where as Dave was out of his crib at 16 months and climbing and into or out of everything.

Renee

Photobucket
Avatar for googolplex
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-31-2003
Sat, 09-09-2006 - 2:26am

You've gotten some good advice so far, although this topic brings back memories of a time when none of that would have worked for David:

When he was two, he never had anything close to a tantrum or even a defiant, "No". No terrible twos at all. He was delightful and good natured all day long. Our only problem at all is that he became silly and restless at bedtime (still does without melatonin.)

Then, when he turned three, he started wildly running away in public places, and doing other dangerous things. I soon learned that I could not take him anywhere unless I could have both hands free to grab him at any moment. Eventually, I tried a kiddie leash. He would wind himself around parking meters and small trees, like a restless and giddy puppy. If I gave him a stern "NO!" he would get twice as wild. I had almost forgotten, there was a time when we couldn't visit our friend without him running like a madman to the end of the street, where there is a house with a wiggly, uphill path. He'd run straight up the the door, shouting, "I'm visiting the Vipper! The Vipper of Vip!" (because the house reminds him of something in a Dr. Seuss book.)

For the next two years or so, I assumed that he was testing me. I immersed myself in parenting books, like 1-2-3 Magic, Positive Dicipline for Toddlers, and all sorts of stuff. Nothing worked. I tried not-so positive dicipline from a smack on the bottom to time outs. I tried reward charts, bribes, you name it. Nothing worked.

As time went on, we came to learn that he had Asperger's and a mood disorder. I'm not sure which one was responsible for his behaviors that are like what you describe, but I now realize that the reason none of my discipline methods had any affect (or backfired) is that he really couldn't control himself. As his condition got worse, it became more clear that he desperately wanted to behave, and simply couldn't. In his case, a mood stabilizer was necessary. We're fortunate that it worked well for him. It's not the answer for everyone.

Go ahead and try what they suggest at those parenting classes, and if you learn anything that works, that's great. Are these classes aimed at parents of ASD kids? If, after that, nothing seems to work, consider that he is truly unable to control himself.

As far as your last point, I remember having similar thoughts. In David's case, his verbal skills were always advanced for his age, so I thought perhaps his brain had been so busy working on acquiring obscure words and memorizing auto manufacturer emblems that it hadn't gotten to the usual "terrible twos" until a bit later.

I don't know about the screams. David didn't do that. He did shout, "Fart Poop!" and "Buttcrack" really loud at all hours and places, and he was unable to stop that with any of my well-studied parenting techniques. Even bribing him with his favorite toys didn't work. In fact, it made it much worse, because it just reminded him that he couldn't control himself. It was like telling someone with epilepsy that they can get a wonderful toy if, and only if, they don't have a seizure that week.

So that's our story. I hope you find something that works. I know it's tough.
Hang in there!

Evelyn
David (8.5 AS)
Nathan (5, nt)

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-19-2005
Sat, 09-09-2006 - 2:47pm

Thanks, Renee and Evelyn. You have no idea how much I appreciate you taking the time to read.

Renee, the blocking the door and controlling the environment is a good idea. I remember once our OT saying with regard to problems like this just what your friend said. I also remember her saying with regard to self-control type stuff, to "load the front end" so to speak. That is, prepare them ahead of time for transitions etc. Don't just go blindly to the grocery store, give them plenty of warning, do social stories, talk about it in the car etc. That works pretty well most of the time.

Eric's screaming seems to be for 2 reasons. One is frustration and anger at trying to do a task and not doing it right the first time, or if something (a drawing, a lego tower) doesn't turn out like the image in his mind. I understand this, and I am just glad he tries. Problem is he gives up and dissolves into the screaming thing. For now I am more indulgent of this and trying to get him to use the relaxation techniques they teach him at school. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. But in this case I know what his trigger is. Usually after he calms down we can talk about what the problem was and ideas about how to solve it.

The other reason, as far as I can tell, is that he wants to do something different than is expected, so he gets angry. This is why I was calling it the "terrible two" thing bc it reminds me of my neice who is 2 who screams "no" or "mine" or things like that all the time. Except with Eric, it really escalates quickly into a frenzy. An example would be after a 30 minute warning that it's time to go to school, and a 15 minute warning, the timer goes off and I say, "it's time to go now" he'll starts screaming "no I don't want to....." and start thrashing around. This is the one I am using the jar thing for at the moment and have no clue what to do. Apparently, he does not scream at school, either in frustration or any other reason. Lucky me. He has done it with his ST and OT, however.

Evelyn, you are right. I know that the degree of his meltdowns and the running are due to his ASD (current dx is PDD-NOS). We are still trying to figure out if a mood disorder is part of the equation. It might be, but we can't tell yet. My problem is sometimes I don't know what he can control and what he cannot or the triggers. Like you, I have read all the "regular" parenting books to no avail. Magic 123 doesn't work. Time outs don't work. The only thing that has worked in many situation is ABA-oriented reward systems. This is how he learned to talk, to do fine motor things he hated, potty training, eating stuff he doesn't want to eat. I just get so tired of that method after awhile and I am not too good at taking the data, though it does always help to see patterns. (We just do this on our own, we don't pay for ABA therapy. But our ST and OT are kind of behaviorally oriented and they give us advice, though they use a variety of different approaches too.)

Oh, Evelyn, I think the "buttcrack" thing may be in our future, sorry to say. For Eric, "poop" talk is hilarious and if he starts, it's hard to stop him. Especially, god forbid, if someone laughs. But for some reason I have more patience with this, though I am sure when the time comes I'll find it more annoying. It's the screaming that gets to me.

The parenting class was for parents of ASD children and it was given by a group that offers private ABA. I thought it would be a cheap way to get advice from ABA pros, much cheaper than hiring them privately. But since it was cancelled the point is moot. I guess I'll get out some of my Asperger's/ASD parenting books and read again. Sigh.

Thanks for listening. It's nice to have your sympathetic ears and your suggestions.

Katherine

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 09-09-2006 - 3:59pm

Katherine,

From what I have been told, you and I are both doing the right thing for screaming. It just takes loads of time and patience, oh and some more patience. Hopefully screaming isn't his first reaction when he is an adult.

Mike screams for the same reasons. He also does a different kind of loud screaming type thing when he is hyper and stimmy. Or he does lines over and over. Almost manic-ish but usually when over stimulated about something. For instance after a particularly busy or rough day at school, on long car rides, etc.

It is getting better for Mike, we go through phases. I do find that omega's do help. But there is no impulse control for him. I guess using his "words" in screaming is better than hitting but it makes me nuts. Of course at school he doesn't scream as much. Instead he growls. Usually not to loudly but if they don't catch it right away he will growl loudly or yell there too and they use relaxation things for him too. I believe there was some yelling yesterday over geometry. I didn't get alot of info again, just that Mike had a REALLY hard time with the geometry and it became rather a big deal and could I PLEASE tutor him in geometry this weekend, lol.

Oh, I also wanted to mention. A while ago my kids therapist/specialist reminded me that our kids really do develop behind thier peers. Even though they are quite smart, emotionally they are a bit delayed. So while Mike looks 10 and in many ways is 10, his behavior and social skills are still around 4-5, some more like 3 (aggression and impulse control). He will get there eventually with behavior it is just going to take longer to teach it.

Renee




Edited 9/9/2006 4:05 pm ET by rbear4
Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-19-2005
Sat, 09-09-2006 - 5:20pm

Thank you so much Renee. That makes me feel better.

Wine time for me, I guess I've finished "whine time" here for now! I appreciate all the good advice, as always.

Katherine

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sun, 09-10-2006 - 12:47am

Wine? Wine?

DARN GOOD IDEA.........Seems like it is wine-thirty here.

Photobucket