At Wit's End

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Registered: 03-28-2003
At Wit's End
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Mon, 07-17-2006 - 4:40pm

I don't know how to really write this post. But, does any of your children display these things in daily living as my DD does?

1. laughs at me and thinks things are funny when I tell her to do something or stop doing something. I can't tell if it is discpline or that she doesn't know how to respond.

2. Repeats things over and over sometimes even when we gave the answer.

3. Asks questions she knows the answers to. Maybe it is just to get to hear us answer her for attention; aren't sure.

4. Acts up in public and when you tell her to stop, she has trouble doing it.

5. Has quirks in public that are embarrassing; always fixing panties, smelling her hands, grabbing her crouch.

6. Schoolwork: Takes time learning a concept. Once learned, forgets it the next time and we start from scratch again and I get frustrated, but there must be some sort of problem there as even the simpliest math problems she forgets or won't try to remember what she did last time.

7. Is loud.

Is there anything I can do to help her in these areas? I am frustrated. We see a psychologist and he isn't helping all that much. She isn't medicated so I am wondering if medication would make a world of difference. Thanks for your help and support in advanc.

Debbie

Debbie, Mom to my "only" Stephanie

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Registered: 03-31-2003
Mon, 07-17-2006 - 5:14pm

Hi Debbie,

I hear your frustration, and I'm so sorry! I think we all get crazy-frustrated once in a while (or more often than once in a while!) I'm sending you cyber-hugs!!!

Even though my DD is only 4.5, I could relate to almost everything you said in your post. I think that some of the embarrassing quirks get more embarrassing as the child gets older -- Sylvia is still so young that if she puts her hands down her pants and I remind her to stop, people around me just smile sympathetically; I can see that in another 4 years, people won't be quite so sympathetic. So even though Sylvia has a lot of the same issues as your DD, I think you're dealing with things on a level that I haven't experienced yet because your DD is older -- so I definitely feel for you and understand you being at wit's end.

I haven't used medication for DD, since her quirks seem mainly due to her social delays and her sensory issues, neither of which would be helped by medication. Sylvia has a really difficult time reading other people's emotions and body language, which is why she tends to laugh when I get visibly angry with her -- the reaction is funny to her, and she doesn't "get" that she's not supposed to laugh when I'm angry. Likewise, she has a hard time putting herself in other people's shoes, so it's hard for her to understand that she's being much louder than everyone else, or that she's doing things that other people just don't do in public. And the repetitive behaviors -- asking the same questions over and over, repeating things, etc. -- Sylvia definitely does that too. I think that the world is such a confusing place for her that she needs to devise ways to feel more in control, and those repetitive things are soothing for her. It can definitely be annoying! But I try not to get too annoyed at her, because I know she can't help it and it's a coping mechanism for her...

I think that OT (for sensory issues) and ST (for speech and social issues) is starting to make a real difference in Sylvia's behavior. But it's slow going, and we have to go over things with her over and over again. Is your DD getting any services right now?

So... I guess what I'm saying is that YES, Sylvia sounds a lot like your DD!!! I wish I had more advice for your particular situation -- but I know that quite a few of the ladies here have children who are your DD's age or older, so they should be able to give you lots of good advice...

In the meantime, try to get out for a break if you can!!!

Jennifer :)

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Registered: 06-25-2003
Mon, 07-17-2006 - 8:49pm

Between my two kids, I can answer yes to all but one of those points (no to #6. Once they get something, they

-Paula

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Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 07-17-2006 - 9:50pm

Yes, between them they do these as well. Cait doesn't lose all concepts but she does some. I have some ideas for that as a special ed teacher.

1. It may be a combination of things. Innappropriate laughter can be common. It may be a nervous response for not knowing how to respond. You may want to after this situation when she is calm again, or if she is reachable during this type of thing, coach her through appropriate responses very directly. If it is when you are telling her to do something make sure to give her supports like visuals and concrete directions. Make a list of what is going on arround when this happens. Is it the demand that causes the response, is she overstimulated, is it a problem with processing. That one takes alot of thought so more of a response and I am in a rush so I move on.

2. Repeats things over and over. Yes this happens. Make sure she understood your response. I tell them very neutrally "I told you the answer to that, what answer did I give you" and have them repeat it. If they can't I tell them again and have them repeat it to me. Then if they say it again I tell them that I am all done with that conversation. I ask them to repeat to me the answer one more time and then I ignore it or change the subject but I don't talk about that one again.

3. same as above.

4. Acts up in public - all the time particularly with Mike. Often it is overstimulation. I try to minimize overstimulation and such situations and provide breaks or structure in these kinds of situations. I use my time timer, lists when we go to stores, I limit trips to stores and errands when he is with me, etc. Provide lots of sensory breaks and long breaks between, I have changed my expectations of how long he can manage in public.

5. Same as 4. Use social stories and positive behavior plans for inappropriate public behaviors.

6. Schoolwork - have to come back to that. Out of time and it will take me a bit for this.

7. is loud - yep and still don't know how to fix that. Mike is too loud, cait is too quiet. It is likely an auditory sensitivity issue or auditory processing issue.

Renee

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Mon, 07-17-2006 - 11:54pm

Schoolwork - (now I am back)

There are a couple things that could be going on.

First, it is possible that she is not really mastering the skill in the first place and needs more repitition before moving on. Repitition can be key with some ASD kids. Often in schoolwork these days we tend to teach a concept and once the child shows proficiency we move on in that skill. Well for NT kids who can understand the general concept that works well, but for an ASD kid who learns more by rote and has a hard time learning concepts and generalizing it is just going to fast. Lots of ASD kids tend to be bright too so we can tend to assume they have learned a concept and then are frustrated when it is soon forgottem because they really haven't totally mastered it. Lots of repition. Lots of rote learning. Make sure that one concept is learned down cold first before going on with it. Then keep going back and practicing it. This may mean lots of memorization in many different ways of the same thing.

Second is related to the first, she may be having a hard time understanding some of the more abstract concepts. Fractions and decimals are the banes of Cait's math existance. Since first grade she just cannot grasp how they work in her head. So she will memorize for the short term how to do one thing with fractions but because she can't see the big picture of how it works together she soon forgets it. If they cannot see how something works together or what it means then it is harder to retain the information. KWIM? Take multiplication. You can learn the facts today but if you don't understand that it is basically adding a bunch of same size groups you will never get it memorized.

Third, she may have trouble with executive functions. It is really hard for Cait to remember and do multistep type problems and writing activities because of her poor executive functions which is the brains ability to organize, prioritize, etc. If you can't do that then remember all the steps of say division or a writing assignment is near impossible.

There are many different teaching strategies you can apply depending on what her specific troubles are. You mentioned math and you may want to try Touch Math. It often works really well for our kids. There aren't manipulatives to deal with or lots of memorization. I tought my kids that way first.

If you can tell me what other types of subjects are her toughest I could possibly give you some recomendations of different sorts of programs to use with her to help.

ASD kids need things broken down into little pieces and lots of repetition. They often need visual reminders, mnumonic devices and different things like that to help them learn. For instance, if she likes music the old Schoolhouse Rock stuff is AWESOME. My kids will never forget thier 3 times tables from one of those songs, lol.

I would definitely start by using touch math. Breaking things down to smaller pieces. Make sure she has mastered some of the earlier skills down cold before moving on. Make things like learning math facts fun through different games and make sure she has visuals. HTH.

Now if I can just get my DD to figure out 7th grade math. If they would just do the things I am talking about instead of 1/2 teaching skills she would do fine but I am playing catch up with her trying to reteach skills she still forgets or never fully mastered (and found out too late because she was able to cover in a large classroom) when they are working beyond that. It is good you are catching it now.

Renee

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Registered: 05-02-2003
Tue, 07-18-2006 - 1:38pm

1. The laughing thing is I think they just don't know how to react in certain situations. Often when I am punishing Everett he will hear me punishing him and will understand the punishment but will have a huge smile on his face.

2. The repeating question thing is another problem. My strategy is to remind him that I already gave him the answer and a wait a few seconds for him to try to recall the answer if he remembers the answer great but if he doesn't then I give him the answer again. It has gotten better but is still a work in progress.

3. Yes always asks questions he should know the answer too. When he does this I again remind him that he should know the answer and follow the same steps and with #2.

4. When he acts up in public I follow the three strikes your out policy and if it really bad then I count to three. We have been doing this for years so he knows now that when I get to three he will be in a lot of trouble and I hardly ever get to three now.

5. The grabbing crouch thing is a huge problem. Still working on that one. I think is it because they just don't know what to do with there hands.

6. Schoolwork is just repetition, repetition, repetition. Some concepts Everett once he gets it he he has got it for good others it is really tough.

7. The loud thing, again still working on that one.

Don't worry you are not alone out there and boy is it frustrating at times.

 

 

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Registered: 11-07-2004
Tue, 07-18-2006 - 3:52pm

I am experiencing some frustrations as well. While my child isn't doing all the same things as your, he has other things that drive me crazy. The thing I most wish I could get him to stop (even over stemming with the hair twirling) is picking his nose and eating it. He will do this in public OFTEN. He is 6 1/2 and far too old for this. When I explain to him that he shouldn't be doing this, that other people may think it is yucky- he declares he doesn't care what others think.

My son also doesn't believe anything me or dh tells him. He says he knows more than us. The only person that knows more than he is his school teacher. I am constanly debating him on this. And, he is the laziest 36 pound kid I have ever known. Anytime we ask him to do anything, he complains and gets loud with us about it.

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Tue, 07-18-2006 - 9:59pm

Thank you Jennifer.

Yes, they definitely get more embarrassing as they get older and DH especially has a hard time dealing with it. She is 8, but can sure act like a 4 or 5 year old sometimes. She isn't as mature as other kids her age and I have to watch her almost all the time.

I don't think Stephanie understands other's emotions either, but it is sometimes hard for me to see that. Maybe I am not really watching real well, but now that I think of it, I feel she might have deficiency's in that area. I try to talk her through those situations as I am sure it is hard for her.

Stephanie is seeing an occuapational therapist and psychologist. OT is helping, but I am not so sure about the psych. As for touching herself, that is a hard one that no one can figure out. She got all kinds of tests done, but she swears to us that it is painful. We don't get it.

Thanks again.

Debbie

Debbie, Mom to my "only" Stephanie
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Wed, 07-19-2006 - 10:30am

Thank you for your answer and advice. The psychologist did mention rewards for touching herself below and on nose. She says she has pain down below, but no one could find anything wrong so we think it might be psychological, but who knows.

Debbie

Debbie, Mom to my "only" Stephanie
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Wed, 07-19-2006 - 11:11am

Thank you. I'm sorry, but it is good to know I am not alone. We hate the loud talking thing, especially DH, but we know what it is from. Is there anything you can do about it? I hate saying "shh" all the time.

I wasn't sure if it was spiteful or she doesn't know that it is inappropriate. I am taking it as the latter and we are working on it. I keep reminding her that it is inappropriate and now after she laughs, she catches herself and says to me "I laughed at the wrong time didn't I?" I never encountered anything like this before. It is all new to me. It seems like most of her behavior she can't help or doesn't understand so instead of punishing, we switch to helping her learn appropriate behaviors. The one I can't stand, and I guess it really isn't a big deal, is when I say this is happening and she says "no it's not!" She seems contrary and we take it as defiance, but it probably isn't the case. It is kind of hard to parent this type of child as it is hard to know defiance from not knowing.

#2 sounds great. I will try that. It takes lots of patience doesn't it?

We aren't in public long when she is running ahead or sitting on seats etc. Too much energy I guess.

Social stories sounds great; I will do that.

We are still waiting for psychologist to get back to us about her being tested for an auditory sensitivity issue or auditory processing issue. It has been over a month; I need to stoke the fire with that guy.

Thanks again. I will respond to your school response then.

Debbie

Debbie, Mom to my "only" Stephanie
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Wed, 07-19-2006 - 11:18am

Thanks again for your help. That sounds wonderful. I will try it. It is good to know what is going on in her brain to know how best to help her since I am doing this myself. We might have to get some outside help later. But breaking down things in small steps sounds good and also the curriculum you mentioned. Do you homeschool?

She seems the same way as your DD with brain unable to organize and prioritize. We do repetition, but probably must keep doing it and everyday and I will try not to get frustrated LOL. I worry sometimes though because PA is a strict state when it comes to learning so I feel we need to keep up, but in a classroom, they move ahead fast and she could never keep up so I am glad me and her can do one on one and focus on her problem areas. She seems faster in reading and English, except for writing stories.

Debbie

Debbie, Mom to my "only" Stephanie

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