WWYD???

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-24-2003
WWYD???
8
Thu, 07-13-2006 - 10:22am

So, my almost 4 year old had a field trip with preschool on Tuesday to a sprinkler park. Kivrin really doesn't do well at the sprinkler park. However, she LOVES riding on school buses so I sent her, and met up with them at the sprinklers. Just as I expected it didn't go well, so she and I hung out in the shade while her friends played. After that they had a picnic lunch in an open field (99F, sunny, New Mexico) and then off to the playground before the bus trip back to school. By the time we hit the playground Kivrin was, understandably, in her own zone and I was seriously considering packing her into the car and heading home.

However, much to my surprise, she decided she could stand up straight long enouogh to try out the play structure. She started up a ladder and I turned to talk to her teacher. Within seconds we heard a very loud voice telling someone to get out of his way. The teacher told me that was Joseph and he was the meanest kid she'd ever taught, and he apparently hadn't improved since moving on to pre-K. Moments later there was a lot of crying. Since it sounded like Kivrin might be one of the criers I excused myself and ran to the structure. By the time I got up to the top another teacher was there pulling Kivrin and Joseph apart. It turns out that Joseph had been yelling at Kivrin to get out of his way while she was still trying to climb up the ladder (she doesn't climb very well, and it takes her a long, careful time). He got in her face and she punched him in the mouth. He had a split lip and was bawling his eyes out. Kivrin was crying a bit and hiding behind her hair, bent over at the waist. When I got her calmed down and asked her what happened. She told me he was really bothering her and wouldn't stop when she told him to stop and he wouldn't get out of her way when she told him to move, so she clobbered him. "Then he moved", she said. I'm a terrible mom, and I had to hide my face in my arm to keep from laughing out loud and ruining a perfectly good teaching moment. I didn't hear Joseph yell at another child the whole playground visit.

How would you have handled this? I did what I could to explain that hitting isn't a solution, but I know she didn't think she had a choice. She's afraid of ladders and with the boy yelling an making it worse she had to have been really scared. And if the boy is really a bully just using her words probably wouldn't have been effective so I was tempted to just let it go...On the other hand she's getting more physical with people and she doesn't realize she's stronger than most of her friends, and doesn't always remember the difference between hard touching and soft touching. For that reason I'm really trying to take a zero tolerance approach to hitting with her...On the other hand again, if she really feels that she needs to defend herself she should be able to do it...but she doesn't distinguish between "self-defence" and "pre-emptive force" very well. WWYD??? Oh wise btdt moms...

mary

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-25-2003
In reply to: atomic_girl
Thu, 07-13-2006 - 10:37am

Mary,


Warning: Strong opinion

-Paula

visit my blog at www.onesickmother.com
iVillage Member
Registered: 07-24-2003
In reply to: atomic_girl
Thu, 07-13-2006 - 7:55pm

I see your point, and I don't disagree with the basic premise. (and yes, I did ask for opinions...Thank you for giving me an honest one.) And we have worked very hard to teach her to keep her hands to herself, how to touch friends "softly", and to stop touching when someone says stop. This sort of impulsive aggressive behavior is new and we are trying to deal with it effectively. However, I there is one part of your response that I question..."It's only self defense if the other kid makes first contact"...I'm not sure I believe that and I'm not sure it's the proper thing to teach a child, especially one that is ripe for being bullied. Of course I was bullied a lot in school, so I guess I'm sensitive about this issue. I don't want my child to grow up violent and abusive, but I don't want her to grow up as a target for aggressive abusers either.

And, btw, I really don't usually relish the pain of others. I guess I just found the whole thing amusing in that defensive...if it's funny it's not so bad...sort of way. In the last few years I've learned to find all sorts of non-fatal things amusing. I hope that wasn't offensive to you.

Mary

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-25-2003
In reply to: atomic_girl
Thu, 07-13-2006 - 9:10pm

Mary,


Your post didn't offend me.

-Paula

visit my blog at www.onesickmother.com
iVillage Member
Registered: 07-24-2003
In reply to: atomic_girl
Thu, 07-13-2006 - 9:32pm

I understand what you're saying. There is no clear line. I'm just so confused about all this. Parenting for the first time is hard enough, but parenting an aspie for the start makes my head hurt a lot of the time. It's just so hard to know what's "right". After thinking about it I do understand how not discouraging "self defence" violence doesn't really serve her. I have a nephew who went down that road and he's constantly getting detention and suspension. Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Karate actually brings up another question...Do you have experience with an aspie in martial arts? I've really wanted to sign her up for a class and I've noticed a lot of schools advertise classes starting with 4 year olds. I've been torn though between the idea it will help her with confidence and self discipline, and being afraid of arming her. She's really strong for a nearly 4 year old, despite a certain lack of coordination and fine motor stuff. Before the split lip incident most of our problems with physicality revolved around her hugging too long and too hard and hugs turning into wrestling matches on the floor. And! If you do have experience with karate in any circumstance what do I look for to determine if the school/teacher/class is any good? In my entire life I've only taken one one semester class in Judo and that was only to flirt with a cute guy that was in line ahead of me at registration. (That didn't work very well).

Mary

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-03-2006
In reply to: atomic_girl
Thu, 07-13-2006 - 10:59pm

son took karate lessons from age 3 to 6 and half. it was great for him. coordination,exercise, discipline, parallel activities, not much interaction. the instructor stressed not hitting first. son stopped when it became competitive and age appropriate for sparring. he did enjoy it for 3 years and earned some stripes on his belt.
i believe it gave him confidence. he's not one to fight or hit others(except his mother).

i understand how difficult it is to be a first time mother especially to an aspie.there are moments i think about having a second child because it has to be easier. not every child can be this difficult about everything.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
In reply to: atomic_girl
Thu, 07-13-2006 - 11:46pm

I can answer to the martial arts question from our experience.

First, unless you have an understanding instructor or a very easy going easy to blend in kid, 4 is likely going to be rough. It was for us. Most karate instructors don't get special needs even when you explain it. They get frustrated when the child doesn't follow thier quick verbal demands or becomes overwhelmed, etc.

Cait was able to do it somewhat and blend in at 6 but it was a struggle and I am not sure how much she actually learned. Mike was a total fiasco at 4. It really is too young even for NT kids to really get benefit.

As for using the martial arts to hurt others. It hasn't really been an issue here except when goofing around. But it is a HUGE rule of the sensei and ours that they do not use martial arts to hurt others or outside the dojo. Only in self defense (ie - someone else physically hurts you)

I have seen instances where I thougt Mike would use his karate. Once an adult kept grabbing him by the shoulder to move him fairly gently, but it was not a known person. Mike kept telling him "Let GO!" and the guy wasn't listening. I thought for sure Mike would use one of the moves that he has learned specific for this and it never dawned on him. He shuts down and just goes with the old behaviors. "let go" is even the words they teach to go with escape maneuvers but he didn't do it. Just growled and moved away.

But the same no hitting rule goes.

BTW. I can't really speak to the episode today. I just can't quite picture the whole thing. On the one hand I think a girl particularly one with challenges needs to learn how to stick up for and defend herself. And she did that well. On the other hand, like paula said, hitting can't be tolerated because it will just cause her more problems down the road.

However, if it was a different situation. Say Cait at 12 was being bothered by some boy and he started to be innappropriate (particularly sexually) but still hadn't touched her I would darn hope she would split his lip to get away from him before he did something to her.

In some situations if someone is being threatening and you feel they really are going to cause you harm and the only way around it is through hitting them, well then maybe it is justified. I don't know. I wasn't there. Was she afraid he would push her off the ladder? Or was he threatening to hit?

The problem is our kids don't get all those subleties so we often have to go with very concrete rules like no hitting ever. That is what we have had to do with Mike.

Renee

Photobucket
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-03-2004
In reply to: atomic_girl
Fri, 07-14-2006 - 6:35am

Entering into this one with more big opinions ---

I think a 4 year old aspie is too young and has too many social challenges to be able to navigate when to hit and when not to hit. I think 4 year olds in general can't yet manage this one. My son is 9 and this is still difficult. My husband is an ex-street kid from rough neighborhood where fighting was essential --- and ds HAS been bullied verbally and frightened for his well-being. And then he hit. But he has also recently badly misunderstood a situation and hit, hard...

I had to put up some intense arguments with dh about waiting til Malcolm is older to teach about self-defense in some situations, but he is coming around. We are still working with Malcolm to NEVER hit, because he cannot yet differentiate. He is to get help, yell, walk away. He is to be proud of his ability to do this. We have promised him that if he even just thinks someone is trying to hurt him, there will be help available. I expect we will need to wait until ds is MUCH older to work on when MIGHT be OK. Malcolm does know to look for a policeman if he gets lost or scared... he did it once.

I do hold out the expectation that as ds gets older and continues to learn more about social interaction and how to handle himself, we will be better able to teach him how to defend himself in situations where he really is threatened, and Renee, my boy is so pretty and physically appealing that that sexual predator idea scares the crap out of me, too.

Malcolm also doesn't use his Tae Kwondo. Although, yes, I expect he is stronger and lands a meaner punch BECAUSE of all the training he has had... LOL. But Tae Kwondo teaches discipline!!! Very, very useful. And respect for other human beings etc. I agree with Renee about finding the right teacher. We are blessed in our sensei, who does really "get" our kids and is also challenging and demanding in exactly the right amount!! He rocks. Malcolm has a terrific relationahip with his sensei and what he is learning is invaluable.

We will be waiting and watching ds to see if there are enough signs of maturity and social understanding before allowing him to work on this type of independent thinking. Much depends on him eventually attaining it. Malcolm is now capable of a good discussion on the subject, so we are ever hopeful.

Sara
ilovemalcolm

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-07-2004
In reply to: atomic_girl
Fri, 07-14-2006 - 2:21pm

I think you did fine in handling it. We had a similar incident yesterday at camp. The counselor called me at work to tell me that my son (who is 6) tried to strangle another student. I really didn't have much to say to her as I didn't have the fully story and I am sure she didn't either. My son won't tell on other kids and if he does something to someone, he won't explain why he did it without serious drilling of him with 20 questions, which is something only his parents have time for.

ANyway, the reason he did it is because this one kid (who he has issues with often) wouldn't leave him alone. He kept touching him saying "TAG" but my son wasn't playing tag and was getting more and more annoyed so he poked him in the neck (didn't try to strangle him, but poked him). I explained to him that he needs to tell the counselor when this happens and to keep his hands to himself. I have been repeating this same thing to him for almost 2 years now. He still doesn't get it.