Long Intro/Male Issues (dd ment'd)

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-01-2005
Long Intro/Male Issues (dd ment'd)
69
Thu, 12-20-2007 - 9:24pm

Hello!

My name is Callie (36) and I used to lurk on this board for awhile. I have a very long intro, if you'll bear with me. This will all lead to a question I have regarding male factor infertility. Dh (42) and I have been TTC#2 for about 1 1/2 years now. Dd was conceived via IUI due to a relatively low sperm count. I, too, have PCOS, and have developed, since dd's birth, hypothyroid.

Fast forward about 3 years, and we are ready to contemplate #2. After, haphazardly trying on our own for about 6 months, we decide to contact our re who helped us with dd. Since it had been a few years since our last visits with him, we went through the whole battery of tests again. It was discovered that dh's sperm count is 0. He was tested 2 more times. All 0. We were referred to a urologist who insulted my husband's anatomy, and told him that he should just tell me "Sorry, honey". We went back to re and demanded another referral. We were sent to an outstanding urologist who ordered her own tests. Again, sperm count is 0.

We are now up to May 2007. After discussions with her and our re as to how this could possibly be when we were able to conceive dd (albeit artificially), we are forced into the conclusion that it must be some genetic "time bomb" that "shut down the sperm factory". B/c he wanted closure on this issue, dh ordered a testicular biopsy to determine the cause. While we wait for the pathology report to come in, we both are working on ourselves to deal with the fact that we are done having children, and that our dd will not have any brothers or sisters. We are at relative peace with this when we get the results that the "factory" is working just fine! I should say here that through physical examination and u/s, there were no varicoceles (sp?)or blockages immediately visible. We were then offered two options from his urologist. Either microsurgery to correct whatever the problem is that is preventing his sperm from ejaculating or IVF with ICSI. We had hope again! We opted for IVF.

This brings us to today and my question. I am due to have my official b/w done tomorrow to see if I am pg from the ET which was done on 12/10. I can feel AF knocking at the door, and have had 2 BFNs on POAS. I will POAS again tomorrow morning before going in for the b/w, but of course, it will be the same answer. Due to insurance, we could only do IVF once. Since this option looks like it will be a bust for us, we are looking into the reconstructive/microsurgery next. Does anyone know anything about this? I suppose it would help if I knew exactly where dh's problem lay, but I hope to have those answers when we see her on Jan. 3. I've heard that it could take up to 18 months for "things" to start working again. I'll be 38 and dh will be 44 by then! Has anyone had any experience with this? Any info would be appreciated. :)

Callie

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iVillage Member
Registered: 09-11-2006
Sat, 12-22-2007 - 9:46am

(((Callie)))


UFF DA.

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-01-2005
Sat, 12-22-2007 - 2:48pm

Hello Karla!

Thank you for responding and your support. Seeing that I hadn't gotten any responses, I figured that our issue was unique, to say the least. I even browsed the donor insemination board (which we are not considering)to see if anyone had any experience with this surgery. I couldn't find anything. I haven't yet done any online research. We'll probably just wait to hear what his urologist says about his "condition" and what our chances are. And frankly, I'm still in grief mode over my official BFN, which I got yesterday, so really don't feel like doing any research.

What a wonderful time of year to be going through this! It's absolute hell. Our holiday celebrations with family begin tomorrow, and I'm still tearing up at nearly anything.

People, in an attempt to be supportive, will say, "Well at least you have one", which yes, I am sooooooooo thankful for her. Especially since for a time, dh and I didn't think we could even have her. And I felt all the jealousy and anger then, over other "normal" couples and women, that I now feel again. But then, I guess you start dreaming again, and picturing your dd being a big sister...It's not fair, and I'm mad at the world, and taking it out on dh (combined with the REAL PMS). I know these feelings are far from foreign to anyone on this board. It just sucks.

Sorry to go on and on. I guess I just need to vent b/c I think dh has had it up to "you know where" with me!

Thanks for "listening"!
Callie

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-19-2004
Wed, 12-26-2007 - 8:21pm

Callie,

We don't have a problem that can be corrected with microsurgery, but I am also dealing with MFI, we have been trying to conceive our first child since our marriage, for 1 1/2 years, and I am now 39 1/2. So I feel your pain on the ticking clock, and trying to "fix" MFI (without success for us). We also have no insurance, but managed to do IVF/ICSI once, which failed. We are doing a FET soon and if that doesn't work, will either do IVF/ICSI again or donor sperm IUI.

I understand the feelings of sadness and jealousy and anger, too. We just found out MY SIL is pg with her first child. She is 27, it took them 2 months. It's not fair. It hurts to think about, I was crying through the whole weekend I had to spend with her and the family, I am not happy for her, and I would like to avoid seeing her again until I get pg. My DH is not at all happy about my feelings. But we can't control our feeling, only our actions.

-Jenna

- Jenna
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-01-2005
Wed, 12-26-2007 - 9:01pm

Hi, Jenna!

Thanks for the post! How miserable to find out about your SIL! That sounds awful to say, but it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to be happy for others who can get pg just by breathing! And then to have to spend the holidays with them. I hope you were able to get away privately to cry. It's so hard to smile and be joyful when you're grieving inside.

I, myself, was very afraid that my new SIL was going to have a similar announcement. Thankfully, that was not the case. I was just anticipating more "bad" news and trying to prepare for it.

It's so nice to know that our feelings are normal and are shared by others. "Misery loves company" ya know. I don't know that the DHs ever really understand our feelings, honestly. I think that we, as women, have such a strong biological, instinctual, NEED for motherhood, that there is no way a man could ever "get it". Not an hour or so ago, I read a post from the IVF board of a woman who was in her 2WW about the same time I was, and she just got her BFP. As happy as I was for her, I burst into tears, feeling sorry for myself. DH asked what was wrong, and I told him, and all I got was one of those one-armed hugs with "We'll see if we can get things fixed." Aaaaargh!!

I hope your FET works. In fact, the BFP I just mentioned was from a FET. Unfortunately, we did not have any embryos that made it to the freezable stage. Sooo, we wait until we can see DH's urologist on the 3rd. I hope she has good news about his situation being correctable. I'm afraid to get my hopes up. If I may ask, what is your specific MFI issue?

I admire you and all the other women who have done IVF (with or without ICSI) more than once. It is such an emotional and physical toll. I didn't realize what a toll it was taking until we got our BFN, and the thought that we did this all for nothing kept going 'round in my head. Though, if we had insurance that would cooperate, I probably would consider it at this point. We just don't have the financial means.

Let me know how your FET goes! I'm sending babydust your way!

Callie

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-19-2004
Thu, 12-27-2007 - 2:57pm

Callie,

Thanks for the babydust! I'm glad you didn't get similar news from your SIL this holiday. I'm so glad you understand, I feel like only other women going through IF really understand how this feels. I cried a lot in private, but I also broke down at the dinner table at a restaurant and had to excuse myself. My MIL found me in the bathroom sobbing. She said "We didn't know!" (about the pregnancy), so I think she understands at least a little. She knows what we have been through. She asked if I wanted to come out for a hug and I said I just needed time.It was pretty awful. I finally went back to the table and had to keep using my napkin to mop up the tears rolling down my cheeks. My SIL and BIL got married after we did, and started trying 15 cycles after we did. We were trying before they were even married. It's hard to take.

I find I get sad and upset when people get pg easily, because it reminds me how unfair it is it is so hard for us, and how quickly others get pg and have their babies, and how I've seen so many others get pg and have their babies while we are still trying. But it still makes me happy when people get BFPs after infertility. I feel like they "deserve" it. And of course I hope I will finally fall into that category. Gives me hope.

IVF is an awful emotional toll when you get a BFN. I was so positive going into it, I hjust wasn't prepared for it to fail. I cried for weeks after and thought I was slipping into a clinical depression. But I managed to pull out of it without pharmaceutical help.

My DH has low morphology (3% strict morph), low motility percentage (14%-27%) and slow forward progression (2). He is on clomid which has increased his testorone a little bit sperm count has not improved. He seems to have a problem with chronic inflammation of the prostate which may be contributing, he is on ibuprofen for that. We are getting a DNA fragmentation test soon and will use the results of that to determine whether it is worth trying IVF/ICSI again, or if we should move to donor sperm. It's tough decisions, and we have limited financial resources. I don't want to stretch to afford IVF again if we only have a very low chance of success with DH's sperm, or if high fragmentation will create a high miscarriage risk.

I'll keep you posted on the FET, but I don't have high hopes.

-Jenna

- Jenna
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-01-2005
Thu, 12-27-2007 - 8:50pm

(((Jenna))),

Gosh, I am so sorry your holiday was so miserable. I would hope your SIL was at least sympathetic in delivering her news, knowing what you and your DH have been through. I do understand.

When I got my BFN (a week ago tomorrow, in fact), I wanted to slap and tell off anyone with more than 1 kid. They needed to be at least as miserable as I was (and sometimes still am). And I also understand how you say that those going through IF "deserve" their BFPs. We've certainly worked harder for them!! I know life is not fair, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard the "God has a plan" bit. That brings solace for about a minute until I wonder what God's plan is in relation to the 13-year-olds who get pg at my DHs school (we're both in education), and that couple from FL who tried to sell their 2 month old for $30. Can those incidents really be part of God's plan, too, while we, who would make exemplary parents (if I do say so, myself) get shafted? No, it's not fair!

I, too, was so confident going through the IVF/ICSI. I was sure that it would work--to the point I already started writing in a pregnancy journal. Then, I had cramping around implantation and started getting nausea. The nausea continued for about 5 days when I came down with stomach flu. Yes, all that "morning sickness" was stomach flu. What a cruel, cruel joke! Then, a series of 3 BFNs from POAS, and 2 from b/w. Of course, looking at it scientifically, we really didn't have much of a chance when they had to take sperm from DH's testicle, which is immature.

That's interesting that your DH is on Clomid to increase his testosterone. See, my DH's testosterone has been low since before dd (conceived via IUI), but has decreased even further since dd (and of course his count is 0 now). His urologist does not want him on hormone replacement therapy (testosterone) b/c it could decrease his count (assuming this surgery to unblock him works--we don't even really know if he has an obstruction, yet). Maybe when we see her next week, I'll ask about Clomid.

DH was also born with an undescended testicle, which was later removed when he was a child. I guess the thought at that time was that it could turn cancerous if it was not removed, and I guess they did not have a way to bring it down. So now, out of the blue, he's gone from a moderately low count of about 19-25 million to 0. When we found that he was still making sperm, it just was not getting out, his urologist suggested that she could take the vas deferens (I hope I'm getting my terminology right; I'm not as familiar with the male reproductive system) from the testicle that was removed and re-attach it to the remaining testicle. Then, it could be up to 18 months before we'd know if it worked. I'm trying not to get my hopes up regarding this surgery. It's best if I just concentrate on life as it is now.

I can't imagine the decisions you're having to make. DH would not even consider donor sperm, so I don't even bring it up. But, I understand, in your case, if DNA fragmentation is an issue. There is a board here for those going through the donor sperm and egg process, if/when you get to that point. Of course, I hope that the results from the test come back with good news, and that the FET is a success. You are overdue!! Do you have an approximate date for you FET?

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-19-2004
Fri, 12-28-2007 - 12:47pm

Oh sweetie, I feel for you so much on that failed IVF cycle. How terribly cruel to feel what felt like implantation cramps and morning sickness and have it turn out to be the stomach flu. As if it's not bad enough to get a BFN, to have your hopes boosted even further and then BFN...I'm so sorry (((HUGS))) If we do IVF again, I will try not to get my hopes up so much. In our cycle. DH would kiss my belly three times every morning and night, one for each blast they implanted. When I got my BFN I mourned for those three would-be babies. They were alive, I had pictures of them! But it wasn't meant to be I guess.

I hope the surgery works for youir DH, that seems like a long time to wait. At 39 1/2 we are running out of time. My Dh actually suggested donor sperm when we first were diagnosed with male infertility. I had to persuade him to do IVF the first time. He is very open to it. He says it's more important to pass on his values than his DNA. But I would like to have his biological child if it is within reach. Unfortunately we have no insurance, so if fragmentation makes the chances with IVF really bad, we probably won't be able to afford enough cycles to make it work, so it will be time to move on instead of spending everything we have on treatment and still ending up with no baby. At 39 1/2 our chances are running out for me too, so if we're going to do donor sperm IUI we should do it soon while it still has a decent chance of working. Of course time pressure is true of IVF as well. I just have limited time left. The IVF showed I am a high responder and have a lot of ovarian reserve left, but quality is another issue.

I am getting my u/s to check the lining and follicle on Jan 2nd, unless I get a pos OPK before then. I do HCG on the day of pos OPK and then the transfer is 5-6 days after. Should be around January 8 or 9.

- Jenna
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-01-2005
Sat, 12-29-2007 - 9:55am

You have a very good, selfless man you're married to, to be so open to donor sperm. I would think that would be a very difficult and painful decision to make.

No matter the method, IVF or donor sperm, I hope it works for you!! You deserve it!

Let me know how your tests turn out! I was a high responder, too, when we did IVF. I don't know why it didn't work for us, unless it was my age, or dh's immature sperm that was aspirated. At least you had some embies that you were able to freeze! That's a good sign! We had 5 embies, 2 made it to 8 cell--those were the 2 that we transferred, and the other 3 never progressed to the freezable stage. After hearing the news that we could not freeze any, I immediately started doubting the quality of the 2 that were transferred. How many were you able to freeze? Don't lose hope! I think it's great that you have some frozen embies to work with!! :)

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-19-2004
Sat, 12-29-2007 - 2:11pm

We have one grade 2 frozen blast on day 6 that they said was good enough to freeze. There were also 2 grade 3 early blasts that they said would probably not survive the freeze and they recommended discarding, but they said there was a 1 in a thousand chance they could make it and it was the same cost to me so I had them freeze those two as well. But for all realistic purposes, we have one.

How many eggs did they retrieve from you? I assume they did ICSI? Did you have low fertilization? They got 35 eggs from me but only 10 were fully mature and 8 were semi mature. We got 6 embies that fertilized normally (2 pn stage), and 6 more that they discovered had fertilzed early or late when they checked them on day 3.

If we do IVF again we may do a lupron/suppression protocol, to get less eggs but a higher percentage mature. My re says they have the best success when they get 10-15 eggs. I'd be happy with 15-20 mature. Getting 35 eggs is really not a good thing (except that shows I have high ovarian reserve which is good), because my estrogen was super high (4,585) which can be bad for implantation. We implanted three 5-day early blasts (grade 1 and 2) that didn't take.

I don't have a lot of hope for our FET but who knows, maybe in a natural environbement, without my body going through all that hormonal insanity, it will stick. My re gives us a 10% chance with the one blast.

_jenna

- Jenna
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-01-2005
Sat, 12-29-2007 - 4:26pm

Wow! That's a lot of eggs they took from you! With me, they did the Lupron until it was time to start the stims. Then, I was only on those for a few days, because my estradiol shot up and I started producing a lot of follicles. At one point, I counted about 30 during one of the ultrasounds (they had me write the measurements down b/c the tech said she couldn't type that fast). At retrieval time, the re only retrieved 13--I guess that's how many were mature. Of those 13, only 5 fertilized, and the 2 best (8 cell) we had transferred. And yes, we did ICSI. With dh's condition, it was our only option. I don't know if the grade 2 that the embies were given were a result of dh's immature sperm, or my age. I guess it doesn't matter now.

I am so glad to let my body get back to its normal rhythm, though. Being on all those meds was not fun. I bet, like you said, that being off of them for your FET will help. I believe it's best for you body to be in as natural a state as possible. There is so much artificial going on with what we do to get pg, that any iota of "normalcy" is wonderful.

My dh just had a semi breakdown this morning saying that he's the reason I can't have another baby, and I made a poor choice in marrying him, and he's not really a man. <>. I don't know what to say when he says those things. I understand how for a guy, especially, this can be difficult when your whole manhood is being questioned. I say the standard reassuring things, but he never believes me. Sometimes I wonder if he should see a therapist. I don't know.

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